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HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
Apart from the idea of the introduction of the grand jury, and the possible modification of identity parades, the rest of the suggested amendments of the Law are, in my view, wrong in principle. They infringe too much on the liberty of the individual and should be resisted, especially at this very critical time when the Basic Law is being discussed and when the last thing we want are Draconian measures incorporated in that Basic Law and I must say I agree with Mrs. Tu's recommendation in the last part of her speech, I think she has some very sensible ideas and these should be looked at very carefully.
Sir, I support the motion.
MR. L. H. Kwan (in Cantonese):--Mr. Chairman, amongst the suggestions made this time on the changes in the Law, there have been three points that I do not agree with. The most important one is in the Discussion Document this time, there is no mention of how we can really crack the whole organization. About ten years ago, when we were faced with corruption, even in the Civil Service where everybody knew which are the Mr. BIG's and which are the small frys, but in this particular document they do not seem to have touched on the important fact of how to get the Mr. BIG's and how to really crack the organizations. Even though you, Mr. Chairman, talk about the fact that after you have got the small frys, you will eventually be able to get the Mr. BIG's. But no matter how we look at it, the most important and the fastest thing is to get the Mr. BIG's first, because the whole organization will then collapse. However, in this document, it has never touched on the point of how to tackle organized crime. In this particular document, they talked about the crimes in connection with triad societies. At the same time they also talked about organized crime, gambling, vice establishments and also drugs. It seems as if they are making use of this document to make changes in the criminal code and also all the other relevant regulations and rules and I do not think they are really fair. The third point in this whole document is that we do not see anything about how to really deal with the triad problem. There are 4 points that I would like to bring up. In order to deal with organized crime, firstly, education; secondly, a chance for the new criminals to turn over new leaf; thirdly, harsher legislation; and fourthly, how to enforce the Ordinances and try to crack the organizations. Unless we can do this, we will not be able to make the general public know what are the best ways to go about the problem. But in this particular Document, one section may be dealing with one particular thing whereas another section about another. Whereas they do not really give us a comprehensive view I would like to appeal to the people who are responsible for drawing up this Document to go home and do some more homework, so that we can come up with a better one. At the same time, I do agree with certain points raised in this Document. Firstly, it should have heavier penalty and this is very important. The Societies Ordinance in fact is out-dated and the fine is rather low and the imprisonment sentences are not really long enough and therefore I do agree with the point we should make the penalty heavier. Secondly, the Document also concerns about the point that if the people who try to induce people into joining the triad society, then they will be very heavily penalized and particularly if they are trying to get the younger generation. The last thing is on the jurisdiction of the Urban Council. It has been pointed out that we have abattoirs and we also have meat dealers and vegetable dealers and also the triad members also frequent our playgrounds so I hope that Members of the Urban Council when they are in contact with the general public to try and get as much information on this as possible, so that we can reflect it to the Urban Council then to the Police and we can therefore work together to solve the problem.
With these words, I support the motion.
MR. JOSEPH CHAN (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, having talked to hawker associations and unlicensed hawkers, I understand that unlicensed hawkers and hawking sites in most districts are under the control of triad societies. An unlicensed hawker who wishes to hawk in peace at a certain site has to pay a buying fee of $1,500 and $10 per day as rent, otherwise he will be subject to constant harassment, extortion and attacks.
It is undeniable that unlicensed hawker sites are dominated by triad elements. Just when the Urban Council is reviewing its hawker policies, the Fight Crime Committee puts forward proposals aiming to counter the triad problem. On these I would like to express my views. Looking at the history of Hong Kong, we see that in December 1941, when the Japanese attacked and occupied Hong Kong, law and order was lacking and criminal gangs took the opportunity to rob. The riot in Shek Kip Mei in 1956 gave the gangs another opportunity to rob. Many think that the British handover of Hong Kong in 1997 may give triad societies yet another chance to sabotage law and order, and therefore we should learn from experience and eradicate them in time. This may be over-exaggeration but it is important that we tackle criminal gangs seriously in the transition period.
While the intention is good, many of the proposals in the document are open to question.
Chapter 5
I do not accept the options in paragraphs 5.9(b) and (c) as amendment to section 20 'could make an offence of a deliberate act or series of acts or words that would imply to members of the public that the person was a triad member." As to the option in paragraph 5.14(c) that a defendant must disprove triad membership, I have the following views—
(1) It will be made use of by the public and triad elements to revenge and frame the innocent.
(2) Too much power for the Police may result in power abuse and frame-up cases, victimizing the innocent.
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
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Page 66
Page 66 of 201
Page 65 of 201
90
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
Apart from the idea of the introduction of the grand jury, and the possible modification of identity parades, the rest of the suggested amendments of the Law are, in my view, wrong in principle. They infringe too much on the liberty of the individual and should be resisted, especially at this very critical time when the Basic Law is being discussed and when the last thing we want are Draconian measures incorporated in that Basic Law and I must say I agree with Mrs. Tu's recommendation in the last part of her speech, I think she has some very sensible ideas and these should be looked at very carefully.
Sir, I support the motion.
MR. L. H. Kwan (in Cantonese):--Mr. Chairman, amongst the suggestions made this time on the changes in the Law, there have been three points that I do not agree with. The most important one is in the Discussion Document this time, there is no mention of how we can really crack the whole organization. About ten years ago, when we were faced with corruption, even in the Civil Service where everybody knew which are the Mr. BIG's and which are the small frys, but in this particular document they do not seem to have touched on the important fact of how to get the Mr. BIG's and how to really crack the organizations. Even though you, Mr. Chairman, talk about the fact that after you have got the small frys, you will eventually be able to get the Mr. Bic's. But no matter how we look at it, the most important and the fastest thing is to get the Mr. BIG's first, because the whole organization will then collapse. However, in this document, it has never touched on the point of how to tackle organized crime. In this particular document, they talked about the crimes in connection with triad societies. At the same time they also talked about organized crime, gambling, vice establishments and also drugs. It seems as if they are making use of this document to make changes in the criminal code and also all the other relevant regulations and rules and I do not think they are really fair. The third point in this whole document is that we do not see anything about how to really deal with the triad problem. There are 4 points that I would like to bring up. In order to deal with organized crime, firstly, education; secondly, a chance for the new criminals to turn over new leaf; thirdly, harsher legislation; and fourthly, how to enforce the Ordinances and try to crack the organizations. Unless we can to this, we will not be able to make the general public know what are the best ways to go about the problem. But in this particular Document, one section may be dealing with one particular thing whereas another section about another. Whereas they do not really give us a comprehensive view I would like to appeal to the people who are responsible for drawing up this Document to go home and do some more homework, so that we can come up with a better one. At the same time, I do agree with certain points raised in this Document. Firstly, it should have heavier penalty and this is very important. The Societies Ordinance in fact is out-dated and the fine is rather low and the imprisonment sentences are not really long enough and therefore I do agree with the point we should make the penalty heavier. Secondly, the Document also concerns about
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
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the point that if the people who try to induce people into joining the triad society, then they will be very heavily penalized and particularly if they are trying to get the younger generation. The last thing is on the jurisdiction of the Urban Council. It has been pointed out that we have abattoirs and we also have meat dealers and vegetable dealers and also the triad members also frequent our playgrounds so I hope that Members of the Urban Council when they are in contact with the general public to try and get as much information on this as possible, so that we can reflect it to the Urban Council then to the Police and we can therefore work together to solve the problem.
With these words, I support the motion.
MR. JOSEPH CHAN (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, having talked to hawker associations and unlicensed hawkers, I understand that unlicensed hawkers and hawking sites in most districts are under the control of triad societies. An unlicensed hawker who wishes to hawk in peace at a certain site has to pay a buying fee of $1,500 and $10 per day as rent, otherwise he will be subject to constant harassment, extortion and attacks.
It is undeniable that unlicensed hawker sites are dominated by triad elements. Just when the Urban Council is reviewing its hawker policies, the Fight Crime Committee puts forward proposals aiming to counter the triad problem. On these I would like to express my views. Looking at the history of Hong Kong, we see that in December 1941, when the Japanese attacked and occupied Hong Kong, law and order was lacking and criminal gangs took the opportunity to rob. The riot in Shek Kip Mei in 1956 gave the gangs another opportunity to rob. Many think that the British handover of Hong Kong in 1997 may give triad societies yet another chance to sabotage law and order, and therefore we should learn from experience and eradicate them in time. This may be over- exaggeration but it is important that we tackle criminal gangs seriously in the transition period.
While the intention is good, many of the proposals in the document are open to question.
Chapter 5
I do not accept the options in paragraphs 5.9(b) and (c) as amendment to section 20 'could make an offence of a deliberate act or series of acts or words that would imply to members of the public that the person was a triad member." As to the option in paragraph 5.14(c) that a defendant must disprove triad membership, I have the following views—
(1) It will be made use of by the public and triad elements to revenge and
frame the innocent.
(2) Too much power for the Police may result in power abuse and frame-up
cases, victimizing the innocent.
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Page 66 of 201
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