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do we worry about them. I think we don't have enough faith. Sub-consciously, we are trying to use that as a pretext to block this principle. I oppose to this. On the other hand, I don't think we have to worry about whether some Councillors would use it as a form of show when the meeting is opened to the public. I believe the public have bright eyes. They can surely judge for themselves whether somebody is trying to fool them. They may fool the public for some time but can't fool them all the time. So, I think we should have confidence in the public. We can open all the meetings to the public. I support the motion by Mr. BERNACCHI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
on
Mr. BERNACCHI (in English):--Mr. Chairman, to sum up. Yes, I agree with the last speaker Mr. LEE, Mr. FUNG with all his 5 points and Mrs. ELLIOTT, but of course 1973 was some 10 years ago, we must advance rather than regretting what has happened. So, I think this is the only possible thing to do, to open our Standing Committees to the public. As regards Miss Maria TAM's motion, confidentiality, the public will be excluded when confidential matters are discussed. As to what Mr. CHUNG said, I don't propose having the public some time admitted and some time excluded, but we can have two parts of discussion, one open and then we can ask the public to withdraw while we discuss the confidential matters. Then Miss TAM said that our proceedings were partly privileged only, well let the Government sue if it can, but I am not going to hesitate to say in public what I say in private. Mr. CHAM saw possible difficulties of disclosure of committee matters, I was the leader of the delegation some years ago to a Westminster City Council. In that Council, the monthly meetings are from 6 p.m. to 10 p.m. with refreshments all the time, just walk in and out, and every select committee is opened to the public and that is the conservative party, it is a conservative Westminster City Council. Mr. C. K. CHAN, like a lot of members, was against the points I raised, but supporting the alternative motion. I am entirely with Mr. LEE. If we agree in principle, then we simply discuss how it can be organized on the ground. Mr. YOUNG said about the communication gap. The communication gap is obviously apparent. He does not deny that, but he said that he is not entirely convinced the opening of the Standing Committee is the right thing to do. Well, I don't know what else is the right thing to do, as Mrs. ELLIOTT said, the people should have the courage to say in private what they said in public or vice versa, this is always the same thing at present, some people perhaps, say two different things in some cases. Mr. Joseph CHAN raised the point that not many members of the public are present this afternoon, but there are some members of the public, some District Board members and the press. Certainly the public will become aware of this discussion. Again, going back to Mr. LEE's point. Do we publicly agree that there is a need for more public meetings? If so, where will we begin then? Obviously, the first thing to do is to open the Standing Committee meeting to the public. If that is so, then let us agree to it by the motion. Finally, for new members of the Urban Council, the amending motion will be taken first, if that is passed, then this motion that I am speaking to now will not be put before the meeting, so I ask you all Members that favour this motion to vote against the amending motion of Miss TAM,
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otherwise, if that is passed, then this motion will not ever be forwarded to the meeting to vote on.
CHAIRMAN (in English): The procedure is that Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion has been superseded by Miss TAM's motion. If Miss TAM's motion is passed, then Mr. BERNACCHI's motion will be referred to the Standing Committee of the Whole. If Miss TAM's motion is lost, then we will vote on Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion. Do you want to clarify something, Mr. Howard YOUNG?
MR. YOUNG (in English):-Yes, Mr. Chairman. I want to clarify something. You are just saying if we agree to Miss Maria TAM's motion, Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion has been superseded by Miss TAM's motion. By doing that, it does not mean that in principle . . . (interrupted)
CHAIRMAN (in English):-It only means that Mr. BERNACCHI's motion is referred to the Standing Committee of the Whole.
MR. YOUNG (in English):-It does not mean that we are against the principle of it. It just means that we have not voted on it.
CHAIRMAN (in English):-Miss Tam, do you want to exercise your right to say something?
MISS TAM (in English):—Very briefly, Mr. Chairman, if I may. My replies in points that has been raised are as follows:—
First of all, am I personally against the idea of opening the Standing Committee meeting to the public? The answer is 'no', provided that we can iron out the technical difficulties. If what we gain at opening the meeting does not compensate what we lose, then I think I may change my mind about it. It is not a matter of stifling accountability or freedom of speech or free thinking aloud. It is a matter of a responsible organization when it comes to making a decision, whether it is a matter of trading a cooked food hawker's licence for $30,000, or a major issue like promoting democracy. Research, insite thinking, briefing from the department should go first before anything else. Hence, my point about the fact that the Director of Urban Services is not in this meeting.
Secondly, the experience quoted about how practice is being adopted abroad in opening these meetings. Doesn't that argue the point that we should look into the actual mechanism, the implication of the practice elsewhere, and see whether it applies to Hong Kong and if it does, to what extent can we adopt it. That seems to me a very good subject for discussion at the Standing Committee meeting.
Thirdly is our accountability as Elected Members to the public. I think there are many ways to check on whether that is so. You can always check the meetings' attendance, whether people come in early or leave late. You can
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do we worry about them. I think we don't have enough faith. Sub-consciously, we are trying to use that as a pretext to block this principle. I oppose to this. On the other hand, I don't think we have to worry about whether some Councillors would use it as a form of show when the meeting is opened to the public. I believe the public have bright eyes. They can surely judge for themselves whether somebody is trying to fool them. They may fool the public for some time but can't fool them all the time. So, I think we should have confidence in the public. We can open all the meetings to the public. I support the motion by Mr. BERNACCHI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
on
Mr. BERNACCHI (in English):--Mr. Chairman, to sum up. Yes, I agree with the last speaker Mr. LEE, Mr. FUNG with all his 5 points and Mrs. ELLIOTT, but of course 1973 was some 10 years ago, we must advance rather than regretting what has happened. So, I think this is the only possible thing to do, to open our Standing Committees to the public. As regards Miss Maria TAM's motion, confidentiality, the public will be excluded when confidential matters are discussed. As to what Mr. CHUNG said, I don't propose having the public some time admitted and some time excluded, but we can have two parts of discussion, one open and then we can ask the public to withdraw while we discuss the confidential matters. Then Miss TAM said that our proceedings were partly privileged only, well let the Government sue if it can, but I am not going to hesitate to say in public what I say in private. Mr. CHAM saw possible difficulties of disclosure of committee matters, I was the leader of the delegation some years ago to a Westminster City Council. In that Council, the monthly meetings are from 6 p.m. to 10 p.m. with refreshments all the time, just walk in and out, and every select committee is opened to the public and that is the conservative party, it is a conservative Westminster City Council. Mr. C. K. CHAN, like a lot of members, was against the points I raised, but supporting the alternative motion. I am entirely with Mr. LEE. If we agree in principle, then we simply discuss how it can be organized on the ground. Mr. YOUNG said about the communication gap. The communication gap is obviously apparent. He does not deny that, but he said that he is not entirely convinced the opening of the Standing Committee is the right thing to do. Well, I don't know what else is the right thing to do, as Mrs. ELLIOTT said, the people should have the courage to say in private what they said in public or vice versa, this is always the same thing at present, some people perhaps, say two different things in some cases. Mr. Joseph CHAN raised the point that not many members of the public are present this afternoon, but there are some members of the public, some District Board members and the press. Certainly the public will become aware of this discussion. Again, going back to Mr. LEE's point. Do we publicly agree that there is a need for more public meetings? If so, where will we begin then? Obviously, the first thing to do is to open the Standing Committee meeting to the public. If that is so, then let us agree to it by the motion. Finally, for new members of the Urban Council, the amending motion will be taken first, if that is passed, then this motion that I am speaking to now will not be put before the meeting, so I ask you all Members that favour this motion to vote against the amending motion of Miss TAM,
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otherwise, if that is passed, then this motion will not ever be forwarded to the
meeting to vote on.
CHAIRMAN (in English): The procedure is that Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion has been superseded by Miss TAM's motion. If Miss TAM's motion is passed, then Mr. BERNACCHI's motion will be referred to the Standing Committee of the Whole. If Miss TAM's motion is lost, then we will vote on Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion. Do you want to clarify something, Mr. Howard YOUNG?
MR. YOUNG (in English):-Yes, Mr. Chairman. I want to clarify something. You are just saying if we agree to Miss Maria TAM's motion, Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion has been superseded by Miss TAM's motion. By doing that, it does not mean that in principle . . . (interrupted)
CHAIRMAN (in English):-It only means that Mr. BERNACCHI's motion is referred to the Standing Committee of the Whole.
MR. YOUNG (in English):-It does not mean that we are against the principle of it. It just means that we have not voted on it.
CHAIRMAN (in English):-Miss Tam, do you want to exercise your right to say something?
MISS TAM (in English):—Very briefly, Mr. Chairman, if I may. My replies in points that has been raised are as follows:—
First of all, am I personally against the idea of opening the Standing Committee meeting to the public? The answer is 'no', provided that we can iron out the technical difficulties. If what we gain at opening the meeting does not compensate what we lose, then I think I may change my mind about it. It is not a matter of stifling accountability or freedom of speech or free thinking aloud. It is a matter of a responsible organization when it comes to making a decision, whether it is a matter of trading a cooked food hawker's licence for $30,000, or a major issue like promoting democracy. Research, insite thinking, briefing from the department should go first before anything else. Hence, my point about the fact that the Director of Urban Services is not in this meeting.
Secondly, the experience quoted about how practice is being adopted abroad in opening these meetings. Doesn't that argue the point that we should look into the actual mechanism, the implication of the practice elsewhere, and see whether it applies to Hong Kong and if it does, to what extent can we adopt it. That seems to me a very good subject for discussion at the Standing Committee meeting.
Thirdly is our accountability as Elected Members to the public. I think there are many ways to check on whether that is so. You can always check the meetings' attendance, whether people come in early or leave late. You can
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