1983 — Page 41

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

Page 41 of 194

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

providing services and in local administration, and to bear in mind the recent development of District Boards wherein all the meetings are held in public under public scrutiny. However, I feel that the proper venue to decide that principle, the Standing Committee of the Whole Council should be open to the public is not in this meeting, but rather at the Standing Committee itself. My reasons are as follows:-

(b) The Standing Committee is attended by 30 Members of this Council, many of whom are chairmen of different select committees and between them, they can express the views of what type of paper to be kept confidential, what dangers are there if there should be any leaks of information during explanatory discussions or of criticism of the workings of perhaps the Central Government, staff of the department amongst Members ourselves, and therefore in order to collect their views and consider the subject matter thoroughly, one session in this open meeting would not be sufficient, but rather 1, 2 or even a series of meetings at the Standing Committee would be the right way to making sure we cover all the difficulties.

(c) This Council does not enjoy absolute privilege in its proceedings. I have spoken earlier on criticisms or may be of the Central Government or individuals working for the department or for the Urban Council. If the meetings were open in principle, what looks like a harmless paper on the surface may involve discussion in the way that I have indicated and therefore open the proceedings to abuse. I think careful thinking is necessary over that particular side of the problem.

(d) At present, there are already rules in the Standing Orders, Standing Order No. 7(a) which says very clearly that the Standing Committee can be opened to the public with the permission of the Chairman and the concurrence of the Standing Committee, therefore, it would not really be necessary to pass a resolution which overlaps Standing Order No. 7(a) and therefore duplicate the efforts and the work involved.

(e) I agree that all the points which Mr. BERNACCHI raised in terms of improving the image, the work, the communication between the Council and the public. Therefore, it would be worth a while for the Standing Committee to explore the possibility of making better use of publicity machinery, better use of motions for open debates, and try to bring the bulk of the essential work of the Council to the public's eyes through the Urban Council meeting in any month that it decides is appropriate.

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

For the five reasons that I have stated above, I would in fact make use of the provision Mr. Chairman, under Standing Order 15(c) and move that the matter before the Council be referred to the Standing Committee.

DR. CHAM (in English):- Mr. Chairman, I rise to second the motion. Mr. BERNACCHI in his motion stated very clearly that he realizes there are certain difficulties involved in opening of the Standing Committee as it is. I think I ought to elaborate a little of the possible difficulties involved. I can see that there is a danger of disclosing confidential matters which may lead to public speculation, prejudicing the Council in terms of its decision making. From time to time, the Standing Committee also discusses matters of an exploratory nature, and then has the matter referred back to be further looked into in the future. If this is made public, this may prejudice the Council's decision at a very early stage. Mr. Chairman, Mr. BERNACCHI has also talked about the Director of Urban Services not being here to answer questions. However, the Director of Urban Services is an Official of the Council, hence he is under Council. All Councillors direct that work be done and he carries it out, to that extent, I think that he should remain an executive. Mr. Kwan also mentioned the District Boards' role in the community, and hence we should follow their footsteps. I think that the District Boards, in the District Board Ordinance, has been very clearly laid out that its role is of an advisory nature. It is there to advise the Government and, I think the Council is a policy making body. It has a large degree of executive powers, hence I think we are different. Mr. BERNACCHI also mentioned that he seems to have missed the long meetings of the past. I don't think I agree with him that lengthy means good meetings. However, I might point out that Council has done a lot of work through its committees. We have 12 Select Committees, 17 Sub-Committees. The Administration Select Committee, referred to by Mr. BERNACCHI, who proposes that it should look at the matter, has only 12 Members. Instead, I think Miss Tam's suggestion of referring to the Standing Committee where there are 30 Members is a good suggestion. Decisions can be made there. I second her motion.

CHAIRMAN (in English):-- The honourable Maria TAM's motion has been seconded by Dr. Kim CHAM. Is there any discussion?

MR. FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese):---- Mr. Chairman, on the motion by Mr. BERNACCHI, I would like to say that the Urban Council, the U.S.D. and the 12 Select Committees have done a lot. That the appointed or elected members represent a large portion of public opinion and they have expressed them forcibly in select committees, however, even such expression should not be considered sufficient in an open Government or an open society. I would like to raise 5 points to support Mr. BERNACCHI's motion.

(a) Where do the 30 Members come from? They come from 2 categories: those appointed by the Government and those elected from the public who have resided in Hong Kong over 7 years. As an Elected Member, I feel that the

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Page 41 of 194 53 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL on providing services and in local administration, and to bear in mind the recent development of District Boards wherein all the meetings are held in public under public scrutiny. However, I feel that the proper venue to decide that principle, the Standing Committee of the Whole Council should be open to the public is not in this meeting, but rather at the Standing Committee itself. My reasons are as follows:- (a) As Mr. BERNACCHI has pointed out earlier on, the official members, i.e. the senior officers should represent and control the executive limb of the Urban Council do not have right of attendance or audience in this meeting, therefore, if we are to discuss and decide today whether the Standing Committee should be open to the public, we cannot have the views of those who are running the department, and who can appraise us of the rules in respect of confidentiality of the department, without that I cannot see how we can arrive at a safe and sensible decision today. (b) The Standing Committee is attended by 30 Members of this Council, many of whom are chairmen of different select committees and between them, they can express the views of what type of paper to be kept confidential, what dangers are there if there should be any leaks of information during explanatory discussions or of criticism of the workings of perhaps the Central Government, staff of the department amongst Members ourselves, and therefore in order to collect their views and consider the subject matter thoroughly, one session in this open meeting would not be sufficient, but rather 1, 2 or even a series of meetings at the Standing Committee would be the right way to making sure we cover all the difficulties. (c) This Council does not enjoy absolute privilege in its proceedings. I have spoken earlier on criticisms or may be of the Central Government or individuals working for the department or for the Urban Council. If the meetings were open in principle, what looks like a harmless paper on the surface may involve discussion in the way that I have indicated and therefore open the proceedings to abuse. I think careful thinking is necessary over that particular side of the problem. (d) At present, there are already rules in the Standing Orders, Standing Order No. 7(a) which says very clearly that the Standing Committee can be opened to the public with the permission of the Chairman and the concurrence of the Standing Committee, therefore, it would not really be necessary to pass a resolution which overlaps Standing Order No. 7(a) and therefore duplicate the efforts and the work involved. (e) I agree that all the points which Mr. BERNACCHI raised in terms of improving the image, the work, the communication between the Council and the public. Therefore, it would be worth a while for the Standing Committee to explore the possibility of making better use of publicity machinery, better use of motions for open debates, and try to bring the bulk of the essential work of the Council to the public's eyes through the Urban Council meeting in any month that it decides is appropriate. HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL For the five reasons that I have stated above, I would in fact make use of the provision Mr. Chairman, under Standing Order 15(c) and move that the matter before the Council be referred to the Standing Committee. DR. CHAM (in English):- Mr. Chairman, I rise to second the motion. Mr. BERNACCHI in his motion stated very clearly that he realizes there are certain difficulties involved in opening of the Standing Committee as it is. I think I ought to elaborate a little of the possible difficulties involved. I can see that there is a danger of disclosing confidential matters which may lead to public speculation, prejudicing the Council in terms of its decision making. From time to time, the Standing Committee also discusses matters of an exploratory nature, and then has the matter referred back to be further looked into in the future. If this is made public, this may prejudice the Council's decision at a very early stage. Mr. Chairman, Mr. BERNACCHI has also talked about the Director of Urban Services not being here to answer questions. However, the Director of Urban Services is an Official of the Council, hence he is under Council. All Councillors direct that work be done and he carries it out, to that extent, I think that he should remain an executive. Mr. Kwan also mentioned the District Boards' role in the community, and hence we should follow their footsteps. I think that the District Boards, in the District Board Ordinance, has been very clearly laid out that its role is of an advisory nature. It is there to advise the Government and, I think the Council is a policy making body. It has a large degree of executive powers, hence I think we are different. Mr. BERNACCHI also mentioned that he seems to have missed the long meetings of the past. I don't think I agree with him that lengthy means good meetings. However, I might point out that Council has done a lot of work through its committees. We have 12 Select Committees, 17 Sub-Committees. The Administration Select Committee, referred to by Mr. BERNACCHI, who proposes that it should look at the matter, has only 12 Members. Instead, I think Miss Tam's suggestion of referring to the Standing Committee where there are 30 Members is a good suggestion. Decisions can be made there. I second her motion. CHAIRMAN (in English):-- The honourable Maria TAM's motion has been seconded by Dr. Kim CHAM. Is there any discussion? MR. FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese):---- Mr. Chairman, on the motion by Mr. BERNACCHI, I would like to say that the Urban Council, the U.S.D. and the 12 Select Committees have done a lot. That the appointed or elected members represent a large portion of public opinion and they have expressed them forcibly in select committees, however, even such expression should not be considered sufficient in an open Government or an open society. I would like to raise 5 points to support Mr. BERNACCHI's motion. (a) Where do the 30 Members come from? They come from 2 categories: those appointed by the Government and those elected from the public who have resided in Hong Kong over 7 years. As an Elected Member, I feel that the Page 41 of 194

Baseline (Original)

Page 41 of 194 53 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL on providing services and in local administration, and to bear in mind the recent development of District Boards wherein all the meetings are held in public under public scrutiny. However, I feel that the proper venue to decide that principle, the Standing Committee of the Whole Council should be open to the public is not in this meeting, but rather at the Standing Committee itself. My reasons are as follows:- (a) As Mr. BERNACCHI has pointed out earlier on, the official members, i.e. the senior officers should represent and control the executive limb of the Urban Council do not have right of attendance or audience in this meeting, therefore, if we are to discuss and decide today whether the Standing Committee should be open to the public, we cannot have the views of those who are running the department, and who can appraise us of the rules in respect of confidentiality of the department, without that I cannot see how we can arrive at a safe and sensible decision today. (b) The Standing Committee is attended by 30 Members of this Council, many of whom are chairmen of different select committees and between them, they can express the views of what type of paper to be kept confidential, what dangers are there if there should be any leaks of information during explanatory discussions or of criticism of the workings of perhaps the Central Government, staff of the department amongst Members ourselves, and therefore in order to collect their views and consider the subject matter thoroughly, one session in this open meeting would not be sufficient, but rather 1, 2 or even a series of meetings at the Standing Committee would be the right way to making sure we cover all the difficulties. (c) This Council does not enjoy absolute privilege in its proceedings. I have spoken earlier on criticisms or may be of the Central Government or individuals working for the department or for the Urban Council. If the meetings were open in principle, what looks like a harmless paper on the surface may involve discussion in the way that I have indicated and therefore open the proceedings to abuse. I think careful thinking is necessary over that particular side of the problem. (d) At present, there are already rules in the Standing Orders, Standing Order No. 7(a) which says very clearly that the Standing Committee can be opened to the public with the permission of the Chairman and the concurrence of the Standing Committee, therefore, it would not really be necessary to pass a resolution which overlaps Standing Order No. 7(a) and therefore duplicate the efforts and the work involved. (e) I agree that all the points which Mr. BERNACCHI raised in terms of improving the image, the work, the communication between the Council and the public. Therefore, it would be worth a while for the Standing Committee to explore the possibility of making better use of publicity machinery, better use of motions for open debates, and try to bring the bulk of the essential work of the Council to the public's eyes through the Urban Council meeting in any month that it decides is appropriate. HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL For the five reasons that I have stated above, I would in fact make use of the provision Mr. Chairman, under Standing Order 15(c) and move that the matter before the Council be referred to the Standing Committee. DR. CHAM (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I rise to second the motion. Mr. BERNACCHI in his motion stated very clearly that he realizes there are certain difficulties involved in opening of the Standing Committee as it is. I think I ought to elaborate a little of the possible difficulties involved. I can see that there is a danger of disclosing confidential matters which may lead to public speculation, prejudicing the Council in terms of its decision making. From time to time, the Standing Committee also discusses matters of an exploratory nature, and then has the matter referred back to be further looked into in the future. If this is made public, this may prejudice the Council's decision at a very early stage. Mr. Chairman, Mr. BERNACCHI has also talked about the Director of Urban Services not being here to answer questions. However, the Director of Urban Services is an Official of the Council, hence he is under Council. All Councillors direct that work be done and he carries it out, to that extent, I think that he should remain an executive. Mr. Kwan also mentioned the District Boards' role in the community, and hence we should follow their footsteps. I think that the District Boards, in the District Board Ordinance, has been very clearly laid out that its role is of an advisory nature. It is there to advise the Government and, I think the Council is a policy making body. It has a large degree of executive powers, hence I think we are different. Mr. BERNACCHI also mentioned that he seems to have missed the long meetings of the past. I don't think I agree with him that lengthy means good meetings. However, I might point out that Council has done a lot of work through its committees. We have 12 Select Committees, 17 Sub-Committees. The Administration Select Committee, referred to by Mr. BERNACCHI, who proposes that it should look at the matter, has only 12 Members. Instead, I think Miss Tam's suggestion of referring to the Standing Committee where there are 30 Members is a good suggestion. Decisions can be made there. I second her motion. CHAIRMAN (in English):--The honourable Maria TAM's motion has been seconded by Dr. Kim CHAM. Is there any discussion? MR. FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese):----Mr. Chairman, on the motion by Mr. BERNACCHI, I would like to say that the Urban Council, the U.S.D. and the 12 Select Committees have done a lot. That the appointed or elected members represent a large portion of public opinion and they have expressed them forcibly in select committees, however, even such expression should not be considered sufficient in an open Government or an open society. I would like to raise 5 points to support Mr. BERNACCHI's motion. (a) Where do the 30 Members come from? They come from 2 categories: those appointed by the Government and those elected from the public who have resided in Hong Kong over 7 years. As an Elected Member, I feel that the

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Page 41 of 194

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

(a) As Mr. BERNACCHI has pointed out earlier on, the official members, i.e. the senior officers should represent and control the executive limb of the Urban Council do not have right of attendance or audience in this meeting, therefore, if we are to discuss and decide today whether the Standing Committee should be open to the public, we cannot have the views of those who are running the department, and who can appraise us of the rules in respect of confidentiality of the department, without that I cannot see how we can arrive at a safe and sensible decision today. (b) The Standing Committee is attended by 30 Members of this Council, many of whom are chairmen of different select committees and between them, they can express the views of what type of paper to be kept confidential, what dangers are there if there should be any leaks of information during explanatory discussions or of criticism of the workings of perhaps the Central Government, staff of the department amongst Members ourselves, and therefore in order to collect their views and consider the subject matter thoroughly, one session in this open meeting would not be sufficient, but rather 1, 2 or even a series of meetings at the Standing Committee would be the right way to making sure we cover all the difficulties.

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

DR. CHAM (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I rise to second the motion. Mr. BERNACCHI in his motion stated very clearly that he realizes there are certain difficulties involved in opening of the Standing Committee as it is. I think I ought to elaborate a little of the possible difficulties involved. I can see that there is a danger of disclosing confidential matters which may lead to public speculation, prejudicing the Council in terms of its decision making. From time to time, the Standing Committee also discusses matters of an exploratory nature, and then has the matter referred back to be further looked into in the future. If this is made public, this may prejudice the Council's decision at a very early stage. Mr. Chairman, Mr. BERNACCHI has also talked about the Director of Urban Services not being here to answer questions. However, the Director of Urban Services is an Official of the Council, hence he is under Council. All Councillors direct that work be done and he carries it out, to that extent, I think that he should remain an executive. Mr. Kwan also mentioned the District Boards' role in the community, and hence we should follow their footsteps. I think that the District Boards, in the District Board Ordinance, has been very clearly laid out that its role is of an advisory nature. It is there to advise the Government and, I think the Council is a policy making body. It has a large degree of executive powers, hence I think we are different. Mr. BERNACCHI also mentioned that he seems to have missed the long meetings of the past. I don't think I agree with him that lengthy means good meetings. However, I might point out that Council has done a lot of work through its committees. We have 12 Select Committees, 17 Sub-Committees. The Administration Select Committee, referred to by Mr. BERNACCHI, who proposes that it should look at the matter, has only 12 Members. Instead, I think Miss Tam's suggestion of referring to the Standing Committee where there are 30 Members is a good suggestion. Decisions can be made there. I second her motion.

CHAIRMAN (in English):--The honourable Maria TAM's motion has been seconded by Dr. Kim CHAM. Is there any discussion?

MR. FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese):----Mr. Chairman, on the motion by Mr. BERNACCHI, I would like to say that the Urban Council, the U.S.D. and the 12 Select Committees have done a lot. That the appointed or elected members represent a large portion of public opinion and they have expressed them forcibly in select committees, however, even such expression should not be considered sufficient in an open Government or an open society. I would like to raise 5 points to support Mr. BERNACCHI's motion.

1983 — Page 41

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