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movement on the streets, as well as public amenities.
The Urban Council is vested with the responsibility of looking after hawkers. The Urban Council should also improve amenities and should not condone unlicensed hawkers to the extent that they will affect our amenities. The Urban Council must also look into the problem of fire prevention and public transport. If we allow unlicensed hawkers to develop without controlling them effectively, then it is clear that very soon all our main streets will be choked up by the stalls of unlicensed hawkers. For example Shu Kuk Street in North Point and Russell Street in Wan Chai, Smithfield Road in Kennedy Town, Tung Choi Street in Mong Kok, Cheung Sha Wan Road in Sham Shui Po, Nam Chong Street in Shek Kip Mei, are places where hawkers cause a lot of congestion. If we do not control unlicensed hawkers then very soon all busy streets will be congested by them and then if we try to enforce strict control the problem will be even more complicated. The staff of the Urban Services Department feel that confiscation of goods is the most effective deterrent, why do we not support them and let them control hawkers more effectively? Confiscation of goods is of course not the most desirable way of deterring hawkers, but before we can devise any better method we have to agree with the confiscation of goods.
MISS CECILIA L. Y. YEUNG (in Cantonese): — Mr. Chairman, on what Mrs. ELLIOTT has said, I feel that the Urban Council is vested with the solution of this problem. As for mandatory confiscation of goods, I feel that some of the hawkers got their goods through loans. I remember once I received a complaint from a hawker who was receiving public assistance that he had to bear many loans because he had to repay these debts in a hurry. Although our industry requires many labourers those who are unskilled cannot get a satisfactory income, an income insufficient for a day's expenses, that is why so many people hawk instead of going to work in the factories. I am not saying that we should support the illegal hawkers but I personally feel that Mrs. ELLIOTT has given a very thorough picture of the situation. I know that we should also heed the problem of looking after our amenities and remove road obstructions and all that, but then we should also make full use of the manpower available to the Urban Services Department. I know hawking is a problem. It causes a lot of mechanical problems for the Hawker Control Force; when they have to confiscate the hawkers' goods they have to get a van. But we must not tolerate illegal hawking. I am for raising the fines instead of confiscation. Mr. Chairman, as a very prosperous industrial and commercial city, I feel that for so many people to have to depend on hawking for a livelihood is satirical indeed. I think that before the
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Urban Council can come up with a workable solution we must not act harshly and rashly. We must admit that the Urban Council is not a Social Welfare Department and we must deal with this problem in a business-like manner. In the past, mandatory confiscation seemed to work but it has been proved that the Urban Services Department does not have enough manpower to enforce the regulations all over Hong Kong. If success is not definite and if the hawkers who hawk in the permitted areas are under the control of the triads, I believe that we cannot come to a solution. I shall abstain.
CHAIRMAN (in English): — If no other Member wishes to take the floor, I will ask Mrs. ELLIOTT to exercise her right of reply.
MRS. ELLIOTT (in English): — Mr. Chairman, I would reply very briefly. I would like to thank Mr. TSIN and Miss YEUNG for their support as well as Mr. BERNACCHI's, of course. I would like to mention again one little point brought up by Mr. SHUM and that is, first of all, he refers to Hong Kong having need of a great labour force. I do not mind if we raise the age for hawkers to 40 but certainly, after a man gets to 40 he cannot get into that labour force, and I wish we would face up to this factor and not keep on saying the same thing. I have referred very many people to industrialists who offer jobs and in only 2 cases have I been successful in getting jobs for them. The rest had been told that they are too old or they are too weak for something that cannot be accepted, so I hope that we will not go on dreaming that the labour force of Hong Kong needs those rather elderly hawkers and women and so on. Secondly, I wish that we would not keep on asking people to go for public assistance because it is absolutely untrue that if a man cannot hawk he can go and get public assistance. He has an investigation and is generally told "go and get yourself a job". If he is under 55 and cannot get a job, he gets nothing unless he is sick so it is not just like that at all. I wish we would not keep being filled with these sort of excuses for not issuing licences to people who need them and for punishing those who try to earn an honest living because there is no other way to live. As I have said, let us apply an age limit by all means, but do not let them dream that everybody can go and find a job or get public assistance. Thirdly, Mr. SHUM has mentioned the HPAS. I think I have made it clear in my speech, if you can get anybody into the HPA's I would be very glad to go with you to see the operation because the HPAs are occupied by the same people in the same place everyday, and anybody who tries to get in finds himself charged with some kind of hawker offences by the Police incidentally, not by the USD. Then some have talked as if the confiscation of goods is the panacea for
Page 86 of 174
Page 86 of 174
134
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
movement on the streets, as well as public amenities.
The Urban Council is vested with the responsibility of looking after hawkers. The Urban Council should also improve amenities and should not condone unlicensed hawkers to the extent that they will affect our amenities. The Urban Council must also look into the problem of fire prevention and public transport. If we allow unlicensed hawkers to develop without controlling them effectively, then it is clear that very soon all our main streets will be choked up by the stalls of unlicensed hawkers. For example Shu Kuk Street in North Point and Russell Street in Wan Chai, Smithfield Road in Kennedy Town, Tung Choi Street in Mong Kok, Cheung Sha Wan Road in Sham Shui Po, Nam Chong Street in Shek Kip Mei, are places where hawkers cause a lot of congestion. If we do not control unlicensed hawkers then very soon all busy streets will be congested by them and then if we try to enforce strict control the problem will be even more complicated. The staff of the Urban Services Department feel that confiscation of goods is the most effective deterrent, why do we not support them and let them control hawkers more effectively? Confiscation of goods is of course not the most desirable way of deterring hawkers, but before we can devise any better method we have to agree with the confiscation of goods.
MISS CECILIA L. Y. YEUNG (in Cantonese): —Mr. Chairman, on what Mrs. ELLIOTT has said, I feel that the Urban Council is vested with the solution of this problem. As for mandatory confiscation of goods, I feel that some of the hawkers got their goods through loans. I remember once I received a complaint from a hawker who was receiving public assistance that he had to bear many loans because he had to repay these debts in a hurry. Although our industry requires many labourers those who are unskilled cannot get a satisfactory in- come, an income insufficient for a day's expenses, that is why so many people hawk instead of going to work in the factories. I am not saying that we should support the illegal hawkers but I personally feel that Mrs. ELLIOTT has given a very thorough picture of the situation. I know that we should also heed the problem of looking after our amenities and remove road obstructions and all that, but then we should also make full use of the manpower available to the Urban Services Department. I know hawking is a problem. It causes a lot of mechanical problems for the Hawker Control Force; when they have to confiscate the hawkers' goods they have to get a van. But we must not tolerate illegal hawking. I am for raising the fines instead of confiscation. Mr. Chairman, as a very prosperous industrial and com- mercial city, I feel that for so many people to have to depend on hawking for a livelihood is satirical indeed. I think that before the
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
135
Urban Council can come up with a workable solution we must not act harshly and rashly. We must admit that the Urban Council is not a Social Welfare Department and we must deal with this problem in a business-like manner. In the past, mandatory confiscation seemed to work but it has been proved that the Urban Services Department does not have enough manpower to enforce the regulations all over Hong Kong. If success is not definite and if the hawkers who hawk in the permitted areas are under the control of the triads, I believe that we cannot come to a solution. I shall abstain.
CHAIRMAN (in English):—If no other Member wishes to take the floor, I will ask Mrs. ELLIOTT to exercise her right of reply.
MRS. ELLIOTT (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I would reply very briefly. I would like to thank Mr. TSIN and Miss YEUNG for their support as well as Mr. BERNACCHI's, of course. I would like to men- tion again one little point brought up by Mr. SHUM and that is, first of all, he refers to Hong Kong having need of a great labour force. I do not mind if we raise the age for hawkers to 40 but certainly, after a man gets to 40 he cannot get into that labour force, and I wish we would face up to this factor and not keep on saying the same thing. I have referred very many people to industrialists who offer jobs and in only 2 cases have I been successful in getting jobs for them. The rest had been told that they are too old or they are too weak for something that cannot be accepted, so I hope that we will not go on dreaming that the labour force of Hong Kong needs those rather elderly hawkers and women and so on. Secondly, I wish that we would not keep on asking people to go for public assistance because it is absolutely untrue that if a man cannot hawk he can go and get public assistance. He has an investigation and is generally told "go and get yourself a job". If he is under 55 and cannot get a job, he gets nothing unless he is sick so it is not just like that at all. I wish we would not keep being filled with these sort of excuses for not issuing licences to people who need them and for punishing those who try to earn an honest living because there is no other way to live. As I have said, let us apply an age limit by all means, but do not let them dream that everybody can go and find a job or get public assistance. Thirdly, Mr. SHUM has mentioned the HPAS. I think I have made it clear in my speech, if you can get anybody into the HPA's I would be very glad to go with you to see the operation because the HPAs are occupied by the same people in the same place everyday, and any- body who tries to get in finds himself charged with some kind of Then hawker offences by the Police incidentally, not by the USD. some have talked as if the confiscation of goods is the panacea for
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