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Kong side. But anyway, Mr. Chairman, you know this is only an experiment. As to the matter of one area more or one area less, it really doesn't matter. Only the experience from this experiment counts, so I think that probably answers Mr. BERNACCHI's question,

DR. DENNY M. H. HUANG (in Cantonese): ----Mr. Chairman, I hope that Mr. Hu can tell us something about the triad members to control these streets, because we are going to extend these 15 to 30 streets?

MR. HU (in English):-Thank you for raising this question. As a matter of fact, the Select Committee has been very conscientious about this question. We did visit these streets on the spot on 1st March and I think that the newspapers may have exaggerated the situation a little bit. I do not want to deny that there is a triad society influence, but if there is, they are all over the colony more or less the same. So there should be concern about this problem, but we should not over-worry about it. This is my impression. And we also discussed this problem, Mr. Chairman, you were present and a high-ranking police officer was also present at Select Committee meetings. We got his assurance that Police would do anything possible to help the H.P.A. experimental scheme to be a success and, judging from what he said in Select Committee, he did mention the time when the triad society was more prevailing in Mong Kok and Yau Ma Tei. My impression was that the Police are well able to cope with this problem.

DR. HUANG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I don't quite agree to the saying that the triad people are everywhere in Hong Kong and, therefore, we should not over-worry about this problem. Because as we are in an experimenting stage, so I think everybody should at least have his opinion expressed. The most important thing is that the Police could give us their assurance that the triad people would not infiltrate into this experimenting area because this would affect other Government departments as well.

MR. HU (in English):-I quite agree with you, Dr. HUANG, that it is an important point, therefore we pay very close attention to this problem. But as you know, Mr. Chairman, that to deal with the triad elements is entirely the duty of the Police. We, the Select Committee, have already suggested to the Police officers that other offences which could possibly be committed by these elements, for example, demanding money from the hawkers, obstructing Police carrying out duties, so they could be charged besides being a member of triad society, they could also be charged with other offences which correlate with their being a member of a society. I think at this moment, Mr. Chairman, that I can only assure the Council that this is the best we can do at this moment.

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MR. CHARLES C. C. SIN (in English):-Mr. Chairman, as I understand from Mr. Hu's answer that when the scheme is introduced, streets within the Hawker Permitted Areas will be closed to vehicular traffic. Can Mr. Hu ensure that building contractors for building site in progress in these streets will have the facilities to transport building materials into the sites, so that progress will not be impaired?

MR. HU (in English):—Mr. Chairman, we will look into those cases individually and we will do our best to give them facilities. Of what Mr. SIN said, I have one clarification. The traffic is only stopped at the gazetted hours. Beyond the gazetted hours, the traffic is free. In other words, beyond the gazetted hours, which later at this meeting I will announce as you were told, Mr. Chairman, that beyond the hours, the traffic will be free, there will be no hawkers in the Hawker Permitted Areas, but of course the old-standing hawkers will still be there.

MR. SIN (in English):-Mr. Chairman, finally, would Mr. Hu confirm that the Hawkers Select Committee is striking a balance between the need of the hawkers and of the shopkeepers and will adopt the philosophy of live and let-live so that interests of both shopkeepers and hawkers can be equally safeguarded and balanced?

MR. HU (in English):-Yes, we would do that. This is our principle. As a matter of fact, I may tell you, Mr. Chairman, during our visit, there is a very crowded street which, in usual time, cars cannot go in, but when lorries go in, our hawkers move away and let the cars go through, then when the cars move away, the hawkers move into that area again. Hong Kong people are very sensible, they try their best to live together and make a living. I saw that experience, I am very much encouraged by that kind of experience.

MISS CECILIA L. Y. YEUNG (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, as illegal activities were mentioned, I do not know whether Mr. Hu has heard of any complaint received by the Police that triad elements rent these spaces out as if they were car parks and there are also labels inviting people to rent the space from them. Actually this type of renting is a form of demanding money and I would like to know whether the Police has paid any attention to this?

MR. HU (in English):-Mr. Chairman, I cannot answer for the Police, but this should be within their general duty to look after it. Certainly, I would pass this information to the Police officer concerned.

MISS YEUNG (in Cantonese): --Mr. Chairman, I would like to know whether the hand-carts belonging to the hawkers, some are small and some are large, have any definite specifications?

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