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the only thing I could do. In my first debate I mentioned one or two parts of the report with which I cannot agree, and with which I probably will never agree. That is why I am delighted now that Mr. Lo, a newcomer like myself, has taken a more positive step in the matter and I urge that the amendment be carried. What we really would like is a chance to consider this. Now, if Government will consider what they will do with this report, then we will take it up.
(Dr. Denny M. H. HUANG left the meeting at this point).
MR. C. K. CHAN:—Mr. Chairman, I am speaking against the amendment. A Motion is moved, someone has proposed an amendment to it, and there is me speaking against it, quite in order. I am quoting Standing Orders. (Laughter). Not only Mrs. SYMONS and Mr. T. S. Lo are new to this Council. The Report was passed in March 1969, and I did not assume this seat until 1st April, although I was elected before then. As in a real democratic Government, I think if Mrs. SYMONS' and Mr. T. S. Lo's argument prevail, we will be changing the law and policy almost every day, because, in Hong Kong, the Governor can appoint a different member to this Council every month. And then you will have to change the policy every month, because of other new members on 1st April, what has been decided on 1st March will be opposed to, and subject to reconsideration. I would say that if we need to reconsider then it is a good idea, but in 1966 this Council had already got an ad hoc committee which prepared a local government reform report, and then there was the Dickinson's report, Dickinson's revised report. And there was a comparing of these reports, and we finally, in my absence of course, agreed to this report, which has been well considered, well compared to the other report, and it will be seen that a lot of hard work was put in by former members. We are just enjoying the fruit of their labour, and I don't think it is right of me, as a new Member, or for any of us who are new Members, to say that "well, this needs to be re-considered, because it was passed when I was not there", and I would urge Members to consider that one of these days what we decided today may be subject to this kind of treatment, and say that as I was not there I have to change it, and I would oppose the amendment and I ask Members to consider accepting the original, defeat the amendment, and to accept the original Motion.
MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, I would like to endorse what Mr. CHAN has just said. I think the two Members, the new Members, who object, have had ample time to study this Report and if they have any suggestions to make they should have made them long ago, and I intend to oppose the amendment.
CHAIRMAN:-Any other speakers on the amendment please?
MRS. SYMONS:-Mr. Chairman, may I assure Mr. CHAN.
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MR. C. K. CHAN:-Mr. Chairman, does the seconder get the right to speak the second time under Standing Orders?
CHAIRMAN:-If she is trying to clarify some view.
MRS. SYMONS:-I can assure Mr. CHAN that I have no intention of changing what this Council has said. I stand on record as having said that in the Annual Debate. What I would like is a chance to consider. This is what I inherited. There is a lot of good in it, and I would be absolutely stupid to say that I can necessarily provide new ideas, but what has not been given to me since 1st April, 1969 is a chance to consider it.
CHAIRMAN:--Any other speakers on this proposed amendment?
MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, I am opposed to the amendment more from what has been said by the proposer and seconder than to the words of the Motion itself. But what we want is some progress. The report has been passed by the Council-in fact there have been two reports passed, one in 1966, another in-a very much more detailed report in 1969, and therefore I think that from our point of view it should be implemented. If the Government is not prepared to implement the whole report, then at least, I agree, give us a decision, but from our point of view, as it has been passed, the whole report has been passed, it should be implemented and leave it to Government to take it from there.
MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, a point which my good friend, Mr. CHEONG-LEEN, made requires clarification. He said that he had been asked whether he and his friends would walk out again. I would like to remind Mr. CHEONG-LEEN that there is a gentleman's agreement that it is the turn of the Official Members to walk out. (Laughter). Until the Official Members have done so, the Unofficial Members, particularly the elected ones, should not repeat their performance.
Mr. Chairman, I am not speaking for or against the amendment. I rise to offer a procedural motion under Standing Order 10(17)(b). It is true, and I agree entirely with what Mr. Peter C. K. CHAN has said, that when the Council adopts a policy paper, that policy paper, until it is amended, represents the opinion of the Council. That is so with the two reports and if there is any amendment which any Member may wish to make, that amendment ought to be made in Standing Committee of the Whole Council for consideration by all concerned. I also agree with, and sympathise with my two colleagues, Mrs. SYMONS and Mr. T. S. Lo. They want time to study and so they don't want implementation, but they want Government to tell them what Government's decision is. It is, to me, semantics pure and simple, whether the Government implements or the Government decides; if the Government decides,
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the only thing I could do. In my first debate I mentioned one or two parts of the report with which I cannot agree, and with which I probably will never agree. That is why I am delighted now that Mr. Lo, a newcomer like myself, has taken a more positive step in the matter and I urge that the amendment be carried. What we really would like is a chance to consider this. Now, if Government will consider what they will do with this report, then we will take it up.
(Dr. Denny M. H. HUANG left the meeting at this point).
MR. C. K. CHAN:—Mr. Chairman, I am speaking against the amend- ment. A Motion is moved, someone has proposed an amendment to it, and there is me speaking against it, quite in order. I am quoting Standing Orders. (Laughter). Not only Mrs. SYMONS and Mr. T. S. Lo are new to this Council. The Report was passed in March 1969, and I did not assume this seat until 1st April, although I was elected before then. As in a real democratic Government, I think if Mrs. SYMONS' and Mr. T. S. Lo's argument prevail, we will be changing the law and policy almost every day, because, in Hong Kong, the Governor can appoint a different member to this Council every month. And then you will have to change the policy every month, because of other new members on 1st April, what has been decided on 1st March will be opposed to, and subject to reconsideration. I would say that if we need to reconsider then it is a good idea, but in 1966 this Council had already got an ad hoc committee which prepared a local government reform report, and then there was the Dickinson's report, Dickinson's revised report. And there was a comparing of these reports, and we finally, in my absence of course, agreed to this report, which has been well considered, well compared to the other report, and it will be seen that a lot of hard work was put in by former members. We are just enjoying the fruit of their labour, and I don't think it is right of me, as a new Member, or for any of us who are new Members, to say that "well, this needs to be re-considered, because it was passed when I was not there", and I would urge Members to consider that one of these days what we decided today may be subject to this kind of treatment, and say that as I was not there I have to change it, and I would oppose the amendment and I ask Members to consider accepting the original, defeat the amendment, and to accept the original Motion.
MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, I would like to endorse what Mr. CHAN has just said. I think the two Members, the new Members, who object, have had ample time to study this Report and if they have any suggestions to make they should have made them long ago, and I intend to oppose the amendment.
CHAIRMAN:-Any other speakers on the amendment please?
MRS. SYMONS:-Mr. Chairman, may I assure Mr. CHAN.
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MR. C. K. CHAN:-Mr. Chairman, does the seconder get the right to speak the second time under Standing Orders?
CHAIRMAN:-If she is trying to clarify some view.
MRS. SYMONS:-I can assure Mr. CHAN that I have no intention of changing what this Council has said. I stand on record as having said that in the Annual Debate. What I would like is a chance to consider. This is what I inherited. There is a lot of good in it, and I would be absolutely stupid to say that I can necessarily provide new ideas, but what has not been given to me since 1st April, 1969 is a chance to consider it.
CHAIRMAN: --Any other speakers on this proposed amendment?
MR. BERNACCHI :-Mr. Chairman, I am opposed to the amendment more from what has been said by the proposer and seconder than to the words of the Motion itself. But what we want is some progress. The report has been passed by the Council-in fact there have been two reports passed, one in 1966, another in-a very much more detailed report in 1969, and therefore I think that from our point of view it should be implemented. If the Government is not prepared to imple- ment the whole report, then at least, I agree, give us a decision, but from our point of view, as it has been passed, the whole report has been passed, it should be implemented and leave it to Government to take it from there.
MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, a point which my good friend, Mr. CHEONG-LEEN, made requires clarification. He said that he had been asked whether he and his friends would walk out again. I would like to remind Mr. CHEONG-LEEN that there is a gentleman's agreement that it is the turn of the Official Members to walk out. (Laughter). Until the Official Members have done so, the Unofficial Members, particularly the elected ones, should not repeat their performance.
Mr. Chairman, I am not speaking for or against the amendment. I rise to offer a procedural motion under Standing Order 10(17)(b). It is true, and I agree entirely with what Mr. Peter C. K. CHAN has said, that when the Council adopts a policy paper, that policy paper, until it is amended, represents the opinion of the Council. That is so with the two reports and if there is any amendment which any Member may wish to make, that amendment ought to be made in Standing Committee of the Whole Council for consideration by all concerned. I also agree with, and sympathise with my two colleagues, Mrs. SYMONS and Mr. T. S. Lo. They want time to study and so they don't want implementa- tion, but they want Government to tell them what Government's decision is. It is, to me, semantics pure and simple, whether the Government implements or the Government decides; if the Government decides,
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