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but the Sub-Committee is not always supplied with a record of the survey. I am sure that the Commissioner for Resettlement can confirm that, but in future, if the Committee is asked to decide on certain things and this fact is not revealed to them, do you, Sir, expect them to give a very fair estimate?
CHAIRMAN: I must rule the question out of order.
MR. BERNACCHI: To jump to the Commissioner for Resettlement's aid and protection, I have not known a case where a particular file or paper has been refused production to an appeal Sub-Select Committee when it is specifically asked for.
MRS. ELLIOTT: Mr. Chairman, it has been known for a Head of Department to refuse a Councillor an interview, or to send a letter saying an investigation has been carried out, when you know perfectly well that only one side has been interviewed and the other side has not. So on what do you base your statement in paragraph 3 that there would appear to be no need for Ward Councillors to call for papers and other material?
CHAIRMAN: From the arrangements laid down: it is obvious that Heads of Departments have been instructed to help Councillors in their ward duties. Certainly the departments involved in Council business must also do their best to help you understand things.
DR. HUANG: Mr. Chairman, in your answer you mention what His Excellency the Governor stated in Legislative Council. Now while the Governor mentioned how many cases were dealt with by the UMELCO Office and the C.D.O's, the Ward System of this Council was conspicuously absent. Does this mean, Mr. Chairman, that what we are doing is really worthless, not even worth mentioning?
CHAIRMAN: That is also out of order, Dr. HUANG, but the point does not arise. The Governor was talking about an Ombudsman, not a Ward Office, and the most recent development with regard to the UMELCO Office and its proper organization.
MR. BLAKER: Mr. Chairman, are you aware that in Sweden since 1776, files used by Government in reaching its decisions are made public, not only to Councils, but to the general public as a whole without any noticeable detriment to the progress of democracy in that country?
CHAIRMAN: I believe I have read that somewhere, Mr. BLAKER.
MR. C. K. CHAN: Mr. Chairman, in view of your answer regarding these files, would you be kind enough to refer this question to the Government departments concerned and consult them whether further deliberation of this procedure can be considered?
CHAIRMAN:
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
No, but I would be happy to ask the Secretariat for a ruling on this, Mr. CHAN.
(7) MR. PETER C. K. CHAN asked the following question:
The hawker situation within the Ngau Tau Kok resettlement Estate is now in a chaotic condition and is deteriorating rapidly.
(a) Can this Council be informed whether there is any plan to cope with further deterioration?
(b) Is there any plan to put the situation under some measure of control?
(c) Has there been any consultation between the Departments within the jurisdiction of this Council and Departments outside our jurisdiction with the view to improve the situation?
MR. R. H. LOBO, CHAIRMAN OF THE HAWKER MANAGEMENT SELECT COMMITTEE, replied as follows:
I would agree with you that the hawking situation in this Estate is chaotic but I cannot agree that it is now deteriorating.
Prompt action is taken against the erection of new structures in the Estate and, in fact, an operation was carried out as recently as 30th and 31st October to demolish structures which had recently been erected. Further operations of this kind are planned.
As regards plans to put the situation under control this will be dealt with within the context of the Revised Hawker Policy. Careful planning and interdepartmental co-operation will take place to institute a properly phased and organized plan to control hawking within this area. I should point out, however, that the hawking problem in a number of other resettlement estates also demands similar attention and attempts to tackle the problem at Ngau Tau Kok will be subject to priorities in the working programme which will be implemented within the limits of approved financial resources and available manpower.
With regard to the last part of your question, there is constant consultation between all the Government departments concerned with the problems of hawking. Meetings are frequently held at all levels and I am happy to record that there is very good co-operation amongst all departments in this very vexed question.
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but the Sub-Committee is not always supplied with a record of the survey. I am sure that the Commissioner for Resettlement can confirm that, but in future, if the Committee is asked to decide on certain things and this fact is not revealed to them, do you, Sir, expect them to give a very fair estimate?
CHAIRMAN:-I must rule the question out of order.
MR. BERNACCHI:--To jump to the Commissioner for Resettle- ment's aid and protection, I have not known a case where a particular file or paper has been refused production to an appeal Sub-Select Committee when it is specifically asked for.
MRS. ELLIOTT:-Mr. Chairman, it has been known for a Head of Department to refuse a Councillor an interview, or to send a letter saying an investigation has been carried out, when you know perfectly well that only one side has been interviewed and the other side has not. So on what do you base your statement in paragraph 3 that there would appear to be no need for Ward Councillors to call for papers and other material?
CHAIRMAN: From the arrangements laid down: it is obvious that Heads of Departments have been instructed to help Councillors in their ward duties. Certainly the departments involved in Council business must also do their best to help you understand things.
DR. HUANG:--Mr. Chairman, in your answer you mention what His Excellency the Governor stated in Legislative Council. Now while the Governor mentioned how many cases were dealt with by the UMELCO Office and the C.D.O's, the Ward System of this Council was conspicuously absent. Does this mean, Mr. Chairman, that what we are doing is really worthless, not even worth mentioning?
CHAIRMAN:-That is also out of order, Dr. HUANG, but the point does not arise. The Governor was talking about an Ombudsman, not a Ward Office, and the most recent development with regard to the UMELCO Office and its proper organization.
MR. BLAKER:-Mr. Chairman, are you aware that in Sweden since 1776, files used by Government in reaching its decisions are made public, not only to Councils, but to the general public as a whole without any noticeable detriment to the progress of democracy in that country?
CHAIRMAN: -I believe I have read that somewhere, Mr. BLAKER.
MR. C. K. CHAN:-Mr. Chairman, in view of your answer regard- ing these files, would you be kind enough to refer this question to the Government departments concerned and consult them whether further deliberation of this procedure can be considered?
CHAIRMAN:
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
253
No, but I would be happy to ask the Secretariat for
a ruling on this, Mr. CHAN.
(7) MR. PETER C. K. CHAN asked the following question:-
The hawker situation within the Ngau Tau Kok resettlement Estate is now in a chaotic condition and is deteriorating rapidly.
(a) Can this Council be informed whether there is any
plan to cope with further deterioration?
(b) Is there any plan to put the situation under some
measure of control?
(c) Has there been any consultation between the Depart- ments within the jurisdiction of this Council and Departments outside our jurisdiction with the view to improve the situation?
MR. R. H. LOBO, CHAIRMAN OF THE HAWKER MANAGEMENT SELECT COMMITTEE, replied as follows:
I would agree with you that the hawking situation in this Estate is chaotic but I cannot agree that it is now deteriorating.
Prompt action is taken against the erection of new structures in the Estate and, in fact, an operation was carried out as recently as 30th and 31st October to demolish structures which had recently been erected. Further operations of this kind are planned.
As regards plans to put the situation under control this will be dealt with within the context of the Revised Hawker Policy. Careful planning and interdepartmental co-opera- tion will take place to institute a properly phased and organized plan to control hawking within this area. I should point out, however, that the hawking problem in a number of other resettlement estates also demands similar attention and attempts to tackle the problem at Ngau Tau Kok will be subject to priorities in the working programme which will be implemented within the limits of approved financial resources and available manpower. With regard to the last part of your question, there is constant consultation between all the Government depart- ments concerned with the problems of hawking. Meet- ings are frequently held at all levels and I am happy to record that there is very good co-operation amongst all departments in this very vexed question.
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