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HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
MR. BLAKER:-Mr. Chairman, I think there is some feeling within the Council, and perhaps without, that the effectiveness of the Ward System could be improved if it were strengthened. In this connection are you aware, Mr. Chairman, that the Prime Minister of Britain stated in the House of Commons on the 22nd July, 1969, and I quote "that the Government accept in principle that an Ombudsman system should be, by law, established for investigation of complaints of maladministration by local Government. The activities of local authorities impinge upon the daily life of the citizens directly and over a wide range, and the introduction of a system analogous to that of a Parliamentary Commissioner into the local Government sphere would be a major extension of the citizen's right to seek redress."
CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr. BLAKER.
MR. BLAKER:-Mr. Chairman, may I enquire then whether the Government is entirely confident that cases of maladministration are so much fewer in Hong Kong, and that the powers for redress of grievances are so much stronger in Hong Kong, that Britain requires an Ombudsman and Hong Kong does not?
CHAIRMAN:--I must rule that question out of order, Mr. BLAKER.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, I have a few supplementaries. First of all, at the bottom of your third paragraph in your answer, that is before us you say "In any case, I think it must be obvious to all members that, as far as departmental files are concerned, these are restricted documents intended for use only by Government servants who require them in the performance of their duties". Such a statement presumably is made in respect to files that do not deal with Urban Council matters, i.e. non-U.S.D. and non-Resettlement files?
CHAIRMAN:-I presume, Mr. BERNACCHI, that you are referring to the various documents that come to you in the form of files in connection with your duties as an Urban Councillor. These papers are made up in the form of files and in fact they do go to Councillors; but they are not departmental files as such.
MR. BERNACCHI:--No, Mr. Chairman, I am not. I am maintaining the right of every Member of Council to have a look at the files relating to matters over which we are the legal authority.
CHAIRMAN: The answer is "No".
MR. BERNACCHI-I am sorry, when you say the answer is "no", do you mean to say that we are not entitled to look at files of our own department?
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CHAIRMAN: -You are not entitled to look at the files of the Urban Services Department or any other Department.
MR. BERNACCHI:-This is a very important matter. In fact I have never been refused any files either of the Urban Services Department or the Resettlement Department, and I hope I never will, but from the strictly legal point of view, I would take it further and say that I have a right as an Urban Councillor doing Ward duties to have a look at the relevant file of the individual concerned, whether it be a U.S.D. or Resettlement file, and I would like this referred to the appropriate Select Committee, which in view of the two departments concerned, I consider to be the Council in Committee as a Whole. Do I have your assurance that it will be done?
CHAIRMAN: ---This will be done.
MR. BERNACCHI:---The other point then is that you say in your answer "that the Government would undoubtedly be prepared to consider any constructive proposals which might increase its effectiveness". I think many Councillors, certainly I, have pressed both unofficially and officially for access to non-confidential files of other departments in relation to particular cases and I would, across the table this afternoon, make that proposal that the effectiveness of the Ward System could be increased if Government were to make available to Urban Councillors the non-confidential files of other departments, pertaining to the applicant.
MR. C. K. CHAN:-Mr. Chairman, may I ask one more supplementary? About a file, the right to see it. As the Chairman of one of the appeal Sub-Committees, sometimes I do find that there are papers which should be made available to the appeal Sub-Committee, so that they are more acquainted with the facts to make a fair decision, either in favour of the Government or in favour of the person who is complaining. At least, would you, Sir, give an assurance to this Council that whenever a Sub-Committee handling an appeal case called for a certain file it will be supplied. Can you give that assurance?
CHAIRMAN: -No, Mr. CHAN, I cannot. As I have said before, I do not think any Department, if asked for a document or a paper of any sort, if not restricted, will refuse to let you see the papers, but not necessarily all the papers and not necessarily the whole file either.
MR. C. K. CHAN:-Well, suppose there is CHAIRMAN:---No hypothetical questions, please.
MR. C. K. CHAN:-Well, in that case, Sir, I would ask a new question. In appeals regarding resettlement shop allocations, there are always cases about the relative shop being covered by the survey,
Page 137 of 237
Page 136 of 237
250
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
MR. BLAKER:-Mr. Chairman, I think there is some feeling within the Council, and perhaps without, that the effectiveness of the Ward System could be improved if it were strengthened. In this connection are you aware, Mr. Chairman, that the Prime Minister of Britain stated in the House of Commons on the 22nd July, 1969, and I quote "that the Government accept in principle that an Ombudsman system should be, by law, established for investigation of complaints of maladmini- stration by local Government. The activities of local authorities impinge upon the daily life of the citizens directly and over a wide range, and the introduction of a system analogous to that of a Parlia- mentary Commissioner into the local Government sphere would be a major extension of the citizen's right to seek redress."
CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr. BLAKER.
MR. BLAKER:-Mr. Chairman, may I enquire then whether the Government is entirely confident that cases of maladministration are so much fewer in Hong Kong, and that the powers for redress of grievances are so much stronger in Hong Kong, that Britain requires an Ombudsman and Hong Kong does not?
CHAIRMAN:--I must rule that question out of order, Mr. BLAKER.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, I have a few supplementaries. First of all, at the bottom of your third paragraph in your answer, that is before us you say "In any case, I think it must be obvious to all members that, as far as departmental files are concerned, these are restricted documents intended for use only by Government servants who require them in the performance of their duties". Such a state- ment presumably is made in respect to files that do not deal with Urban Council matters, i.e. non-U.S.D. and non-Resettlement files?
CHAIRMAN:-I presume, Mr. BERNACCHI, that you are referring to the various documents that come to you in the form of files in con- nection with your duties as an Urban Councillor. These papers are made up in the form of files and in fact they do go to Councillors; but they are not departmental files as such.
MR. BERNACCHI:--No, Mr. Chairman, I am not. I am maintain- ing the right of every Member of Council to have a look at the files relating to matters over which we are the legal authority.
CHAIRMAN: The answer is "No".
MR. BERNACCHI-I am sorry, when you say the answer is "no", do you mean to say that we are not entitled to look at files of our own department?
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
251
CHAIRMAN: -You are not entitled to look at the files of the Urban Services Department or any other Department.
MR. BERNACCHI:-This is a very important matter. In fact I have never been refused any files either of the Urban Services Depart- ment or the Resettlement Department, and I hope I never will, but from the strictly legal point of view, I would take it further and say that I have a right as an Urban Councillor doing Ward duties to have a look at the relevant file of the individual concerned, whether it be a U.S.D. or Resettlement file, and I would like this referred to the appropriate Select Committee, which in view of the two departments concerned, I consider to be the Council in Committee as a Whole. Do I have your assurance that it will be done?
CHAIRMAN: ---This will be done.
MR. BERNACCHI:---The other point then is that you say in your answer "that the Government would undoubtedly be prepared to consider any constructive proposals which might increase its effective- ness". I think many Councillors, certainly I, have pressed both unofficially and officially for access to non-confidential files of other departments in relation to particular cases and I would, across the table this afternoon, make that proposal that the effectiveness of the Ward System could be increased if Government were to make available to Urban Councillors the non-confidential files of other departments, pertaining to the applicant.
MR. C. K. CHAN:-Mr. Chairman, may I ask one more supple- mentary? About a file, the right to see it. As the Chairman of one of the appeal Sub-Committees, sometimes I do find that there are papers which should be made available to the appeal Sub-Committee, so that they are more acquainted with the facts to make a fair decision, either in favour of the Government or in favour of the person who is complaining. At least, would you, Sir, give an assurance to this Council that whenever a Sub-Committee handling an appeal case called for a certain file it will be supplied. Can you give that assur- ance?
CHAIRMAN: -No, Mr. CHAN, I cannot. As I have said before, I do not think any Department, if asked for a document or a paper of any sort, if not restricted, will refuse to let you see the papers, but not necessarily all the papers and not necessarily the whole file either.
MR. C. K. CHAN:-Well, suppose there is CHAIRMAN:---No hypothetical questions, please.
MR. C. K. CHAN:-Well, in that case, Sir, I would ask a new question. In appeals regarding resettlement shop allocations, there are always cases about the relative shop being covered by the survey,
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