1967 — Page 109

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

Page 109 of 259

194

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

MR. BERNACCHI:- Do I understand from Mr. SALES' last answer that the expression "as well as facilities for competitive swimming at international standards" means merely as regards width and length?

MR. SALES:- Mr. Chairman, may I say that the Select Committee has carefully considered this question and is firmly of the opinion that whatever saving there may be in dimensions of the biggest sized swimming pool in the swimming complex it is no saving at all when compared in terms of the facilities that would be, and should be, made available to the public. So that the biggest swimming pool in surface area will conform to Olympic standards, 50 metres x 21 metres, and if Mr. BERNACCHI doubts this, may I table the Regulations of the International Swimming Federation, and if Mr. BERNACCHI wishes to pursue further studies of swimming pools, this is the latest from Germany, it arrived last week, and it in fact bears out the policy which Hong Kong is pursuing in regulating swimming pools. So that Mr. BERNACCHI may not confuse himself and this Council about swimming terms, I have a glossary which he could study with advantage.

MR. BERNACCHI:- Thank you very much. The only thing that Mr. SALES has not answered now is the original supplementary question which is, by conforming to international standards, does it mean that we will have less pools to swim in?

MR. SALES:- Mr. Chairman, would he frame that question again? I fail to understand that question, I am sorry.

CHAIRMAN:- I feel that it is a question that an answer cannot be given to, except in these terms: eventually, no, Sir.

(13) DR. P. F. Woo asked the following question:

Would the Chairman consider assigning an official in the Council Section, his sole duty being to take care of Members' suggestions and recommendations, and to follow up each Member's questions and motions? Would the Chairman say the present system is satisfactory?

THE CHAIRMAN, URBAN COUNCIL, replied as follows:-

The Council Section of the Urban Services Department, under the control of the Secretary, Urban Council, is designed for just this purpose. Every Committee of the Council has a Secretary assigned to it, and that Secretary is responsible for seeing that all possible action is taken on matters raised.

With one exception I am not aware that the present system has failed and I am, therefore, of the opinion that it is satisfactory. The one exception is in the case of matters referred by the Committee of the Whole to a particular Select Committee. It has not been the practice for the Secretaries of Select Committees to refer decisions on minor matters back to the Committee of the Whole unless specifically requested. This can easily be rectified, and instructions will be issued to Committee Secretaries to refer all decisions on such matters to the Secretary, Urban Council to take appropriate action.

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

195

The exception I referred to above may be the reason for Dr. Woo's question. If not, and if Dr. Woo would care to let me know of any matter where no action has been taken, I would be pleased to look into it.

DR. Woo:- Sir, I have several supplementary questions, and what I am going to ask has no reflection upon the present Secretary. The first one is, the Motions passed by this Council. Do you inform all the members of this Council exactly what the situation is after a Motion is passed? Do you ever do that?

CHAIRMAN:- Everything is followed up so far as I am aware. I have some examples here. Now these, as it happens, concern ultra vires motions.

DR. Woo:- I am not talking about ultra vires motions, I am talking about Motions passed by this Council, passed by vote.

CHAIRMAN:- The answer is yes. May I give an example? Members who have sat on the Council longer than I will remember there was a proposal that the operation of the Fire Services Department within the urban area be placed under the management of the Urban Council. That was followed up in March 1966 with a Committee Paper, CW/184/65, which read "The debate on the Motion that Government be requested to put the operations of the Fire Services Department within the urban area under the management of the Urban Council has been carefully considered by His Excellency The Governor. His Excellency has noted the various arguments put forward by the Urban Council in support of the request, but has decided that it would be inopportune to contemplate any changes in the existing arrangements at the present time". I have other examples here, there is no need to weary the Council with reading them out. If Dr. Woo can give me a specific instance where a Motion was not followed up, I will look into it.

DR. Woo:- I have got a number of them. Mr. SALES has moved many Motions on parks and playgrounds. Have you informed all the Members exactly what action was taken after the Motion was passed? I am talking only of parks and playgrounds. Can you find the file where all the members were informed?

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Page 109 of 259 194 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL MR. BERNACCHI:- Do I understand from Mr. SALES' last answer that the expression "as well as facilities for competitive swimming at international standards" means merely as regards width and length? MR. SALES:- Mr. Chairman, may I say that the Select Committee has carefully considered this question and is firmly of the opinion that whatever saving there may be in dimensions of the biggest sized swimming pool in the swimming complex it is no saving at all when compared in terms of the facilities that would be, and should be, made available to the public. So that the biggest swimming pool in surface area will conform to Olympic standards, 50 metres x 21 metres, and if Mr. BERNACCHI doubts this, may I table the Regulations of the International Swimming Federation, and if Mr. BERNACCHI wishes to pursue further studies of swimming pools, this is the latest from Germany, it arrived last week, and it in fact bears out the policy which Hong Kong is pursuing in regulating swimming pools. So that Mr. BERNACCHI may not confuse himself and this Council about swimming terms, I have a glossary which he could study with advantage. MR. BERNACCHI:- Thank you very much. The only thing that Mr. SALES has not answered now is the original supplementary question which is, by conforming to international standards, does it mean that we will have less pools to swim in? MR. SALES:- Mr. Chairman, would he frame that question again? I fail to understand that question, I am sorry. CHAIRMAN:- I feel that it is a question that an answer cannot be given to, except in these terms: eventually, no, Sir. (13) DR. P. F. Woo asked the following question: Would the Chairman consider assigning an official in the Council Section, his sole duty being to take care of Members' suggestions and recommendations, and to follow up each Member's questions and motions? Would the Chairman say the present system is satisfactory? THE CHAIRMAN, URBAN COUNCIL, replied as follows:- The Council Section of the Urban Services Department, under the control of the Secretary, Urban Council, is designed for just this purpose. Every Committee of the Council has a Secretary assigned to it, and that Secretary is responsible for seeing that all possible action is taken on matters raised. With one exception I am not aware that the present system has failed and I am, therefore, of the opinion that it is satisfactory. The one exception is in the case of matters referred by the Committee of the Whole to a particular Select Committee. It has not been the practice for the Secretaries of Select Committees to refer decisions on minor matters back to the Committee of the Whole unless specifically requested. This can easily be rectified, and instructions will be issued to Committee Secretaries to refer all decisions on such matters to the Secretary, Urban Council to take appropriate action. HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 195 The exception I referred to above may be the reason for Dr. Woo's question. If not, and if Dr. Woo would care to let me know of any matter where no action has been taken, I would be pleased to look into it. DR. Woo:- Sir, I have several supplementary questions, and what I am going to ask has no reflection upon the present Secretary. The first one is, the Motions passed by this Council. Do you inform all the members of this Council exactly what the situation is after a Motion is passed? Do you ever do that? CHAIRMAN:- Everything is followed up so far as I am aware. I have some examples here. Now these, as it happens, concern ultra vires motions. DR. Woo:- I am not talking about ultra vires motions, I am talking about Motions passed by this Council, passed by vote. CHAIRMAN:- The answer is yes. May I give an example? Members who have sat on the Council longer than I will remember there was a proposal that the operation of the Fire Services Department within the urban area be placed under the management of the Urban Council. That was followed up in March 1966 with a Committee Paper, CW/184/65, which read "The debate on the Motion that Government be requested to put the operations of the Fire Services Department within the urban area under the management of the Urban Council has been carefully considered by His Excellency The Governor. His Excellency has noted the various arguments put forward by the Urban Council in support of the request, but has decided that it would be inopportune to contemplate any changes in the existing arrangements at the present time". I have other examples here, there is no need to weary the Council with reading them out. If Dr. Woo can give me a specific instance where a Motion was not followed up, I will look into it. DR. Woo:- I have got a number of them. Mr. SALES has moved many Motions on parks and playgrounds. Have you informed all the Members exactly what action was taken after the Motion was passed? I am talking only of parks and playgrounds. Can you find the file where all the members were informed? Page 109 of 259

Baseline (Original)

of 259 Page 109 of 25ya. Page 109 of 259 194 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL MR. BERNACCHI:-Do I understand from Mr. SALES' last answer that the expression "as well as facilities for competitive swimming at international standards" means merely as regards width and length? MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, may I say that the Select Committee has carefully considered this question and is firmly of the opinion that whatever saving there may be in dimensions of the biggest sized swim- ming pool in the swimming complex it is no saving at all when com- pared in terms of the facilities that would be, and should be, made available to the public. So that the biggest swimming pool in surface area will conform to Olympic standards, 50 metres x 21 metres, and if Mr. BERNACCHI doubts this, may I table the Regulations of the Inter- national Swimming Federation, and if Mr. BERNACCHI wishes to pursue further studies of swimming pools, this is the latest from Germany, it arrived last week, and it in fact bears out the policy which Hong Kong is pursuing in regulating swimming pools. So that Mr. BERNACCHI may not confuse himself and this Council about swimming terms, I have a glossary which he could study with advantage. MR. BERNACCHI:-Thank you very much. The only thing that Mr. SALES has not answered now is the original supplementary question which is, by conforming to international standards, does it mean that we will have less pools to swim in? MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, would he frame that question again? I fail to understand that question, I am sorry. CHAIRMAN:-I feel that it is a question that an answer cannot be given to, except in these terms: eventually, no, Sir. (13) DR. P. F. Woo asked the following question: Would the Chairman consider assigning an official in the Council Section, his sole duty being to take care of Members' suggestions and recommendations, and to follow up each Member's questions and motions? Would the Chairman say the present system is satisfactory? THE CHAIRMAN, URBAN COUNCIL, replied as follows:- The Council Section of the Urban Services Department, under the control of the Secretary, Urban Council, is designed for just this purpose. Every Committee of the Council has a Secretary assigned to it, and that Secretary is respon- sible for seeing that all possible action is taken on matters raised. With one exception I am not aware that the present system has failed and I am, therefore, of the opinion that it is satis- HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 195 factory. The one exception is in the case of matters referred by the Committee of the Whole to a particular Select Committee. It has not been the practice for the Secretaries of Select Committees to refer decisions on minor matters back to the Committee of the Whole unless specifically requested. This can easily be rectified, and instructions will be issued to Committee Secretaries to refer all decisions on such matters to the Secretary, Urban Council to take appropriate action. The exception I referred to above may be the reason for Dr. Woo's question. If not, and if Dr. Woo would care to let me know of any matter where no action has been taken, I would be pleased to look into it. DR. Woo:-Sir, I have several supplementary questions, and what I am going to ask has no reflection upon the present Secretary. The first one is, the Motions passed by this Council. Do you inform all the members of this Council exactly what the situation is after a Motion is passed? Do you ever do that? I CHAIRMAN: --Everything is followed up so far as I am aware. have some examples here. Now these, as it happens, concern ultra vires motions. DR. Woo:-I am not talking about ultra vires motions, I am talking about Motions passed by this Council, passed by vote. CHAIRMAN:-The answer is yes. May I give an example? Mem- bers who have sat on the Council longer than I will remember there was a proposal that the operation of the Fire Services Department within the urban area be placed under the management of the Urban Council. That was followed up in March 1966 with a Committee Paper, CW/184/65, which read "The debate on the Motion that Government be requested to put the operations of the Fire Services Department within the urban area under the management of the Urban Council has been carefully considered by His Excellency The Governor. His Excel- lency has noted the various arguments put forward by the Urban Council in support of the request, but has decided that it would be inopportune to contemplate any changes in the existing arrangements at the present time". I have other examples here, there is no need to weary the Council with reading them out. If Dr. Woo can give me a specific instance where a Motion was not followed up, I will look into it. DR. Woo:-I have got a number of them. Mr. SALES has moved many Motions on parks and playgrounds. Have you informed all the Members exactly what action was taken after the Motion was passed? I am talking only of parks and playgrounds. Can you find the file where all the members were informed?

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of 259

Page 109 of 25ya.

Page 109 of 259

194

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

MR. BERNACCHI:-Do I understand from Mr. SALES' last answer that the expression "as well as facilities for competitive swimming at international standards" means merely as regards width and length?

MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, may I say that the Select Committee has carefully considered this question and is firmly of the opinion that whatever saving there may be in dimensions of the biggest sized swim- ming pool in the swimming complex it is no saving at all when com- pared in terms of the facilities that would be, and should be, made available to the public. So that the biggest swimming pool in surface area will conform to Olympic standards, 50 metres x 21 metres, and if Mr. BERNACCHI doubts this, may I table the Regulations of the Inter- national Swimming Federation, and if Mr. BERNACCHI wishes to pursue further studies of swimming pools, this is the latest from Germany, it arrived last week, and it in fact bears out the policy which Hong Kong is pursuing in regulating swimming pools. So that Mr. BERNACCHI may not confuse himself and this Council about swimming terms, I have a glossary which he could study with advantage.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Thank you very much. The only thing that Mr. SALES has not answered now is the original supplementary question which is, by conforming to international standards, does it mean that we will have less pools to swim in?

MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, would he frame that question again? I fail to understand that question, I am sorry.

CHAIRMAN:-I feel that it is a question that an answer cannot be given to, except in these terms: eventually, no, Sir.

(13) DR. P. F. Woo asked the following question:

THE CHAIRMAN, URBAN COUNCIL, replied as follows:-

The Council Section of the Urban Services Department, under the control of the Secretary, Urban Council, is designed for just this purpose. Every Committee of the Council has a Secretary assigned to it, and that Secretary is respon- sible for seeing that all possible action is taken on matters raised.

With one exception I am not aware that the present system has failed and I am, therefore, of the opinion that it is satis-

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

195

factory. The one exception is in the case of matters referred by the Committee of the Whole to a particular Select Committee. It has not been the practice for the Secretaries of Select Committees to refer decisions on minor matters back to the Committee of the Whole unless specifically requested. This can easily be rectified, and instructions will be issued to Committee Secretaries to refer all decisions on such matters to the Secretary, Urban Council to take appropriate action.

DR. Woo:-Sir, I have several supplementary questions, and what I am going to ask has no reflection upon the present Secretary. The first one is, the Motions passed by this Council. Do you inform all the members of this Council exactly what the situation is after a Motion is passed? Do you ever do that?

CHAIRMAN: --Everything is followed up so far as I am aware. have some examples here. Now these, as it happens, concern ultra

vires motions.

DR. Woo:-I am not talking about ultra vires motions, I am talking about Motions passed by this Council, passed by vote.

CHAIRMAN:-The answer is yes. May I give an example? Mem- bers who have sat on the Council longer than I will remember there was a proposal that the operation of the Fire Services Department within the urban area be placed under the management of the Urban Council. That was followed up in March 1966 with a Committee Paper, CW/184/65, which read "The debate on the Motion that Government be requested to put the operations of the Fire Services Department within the urban area under the management of the Urban Council has been carefully considered by His Excellency The Governor. His Excel- lency has noted the various arguments put forward by the Urban Council in support of the request, but has decided that it would be inopportune to contemplate any changes in the existing arrangements at the present time". I have other examples here, there is no need to weary the Council with reading them out. If Dr. Woo can give me a specific instance where a Motion was not followed up, I will look into it.

DR. Woo:-I have got a number of them. Mr. SALES has moved many Motions on parks and playgrounds. Have you informed all the Members exactly what action was taken after the Motion was passed? I am talking only of parks and playgrounds. Can you find the file where all the members were informed?

1967 — Page 109

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