HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
of course anticipate their conclusions or what action may result from them; I would only say at this stage that not everyone would necessarily agree with Mr. CHEONG-LEEN in making a retirement pension the first priority in a programme of social security. In saying this my intention is not in any way to play down the problems that old age and retirement create, but merely to suggest that there may be other needs no less pressing, and possibly more so, including for example assistance during the illness of a breadwinner or assistance to a widow with dependent children.
Mr. CHEONG-LEEN's remarks on a National Pension Fund were made in the context of the inroads that he believes that rapid economic growth and the population explosion have made into traditional Chinese family ties and responsibilities. The extent of this erosion of traditional standards and patterns of behaviour is the subject of a large scale research project which was launched earlier in the summer, the results of which will not be known for about two years. Meantime, whether one assesses the extent of the erosion at a high, medium or a low level there will, I imagine, be few who will contend that it does not exist. Its effects, I would suggest, are to be seen not only in terms of the financial support of the aged; it underlies many of the unhealthy symptoms to which Mr. CHEONG-LEEN and other speakers have referred. While I am neither a sociologist nor a psychologist, I would suggest that even a non-ologist can legitimately regard the weakening of family ties, traditions and patterns of behaviour as one of the factors that help to create the clientele for the bogus soda fountains, barber shops, for which neither Mr. WONG nor I have a very great use (Laughter), boarding houses, etc. to which reference has been made, and that provide the audiences willing to pay to see indecent films and indecent exhibitions.
The existence of these establishments and facilities for vice must be a matter of concern for all who have the interests of our city and of our young people at heart. Of course the commercialization and exploitation of sex in all its forms is a phenomenon which occurs over the greater part of the earth, and one of its basic causes is an equally universal appetite; it would be a very strange thing if Hong Kong did not have a problem that arises in societies everywhere. One cannot however take recognition of these facts to the point of indifference, particularly where there is a danger that immature minds may be corrupted. Let us however honestly recognize that any efforts that may be made to prevent the kind of things to which members have referred are attended by genuine practical difficulties, to recognize which is not a sign of indifference. The concern that many have rightly expressed has to be translated into practical action. Proposals for action have also to be related to another laudable principle, that we should not encroach unjustifiably on the liberty of the individual. In our efforts
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
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to remove features in our social life that are held by many to be not only undesirable but also damaging there is a risk of resorting to measures which could have equally undesirable effects. In particular it is necessary to avoid creating additional opportunities for corruption or instituting controls which, without in themselves being really effective in eliminating vice, give fresh opportunities to members of the black societies to get a hold on purveyors or patrons of vice.
Let us, too, frankly recognize that, whatever additional preventive measures we may seek to apply by legislation, the only effective protection comes from a conviction on the part of the individual that there are things to be resisted and shunned because they are wrong. Immorality cannot be abolished, nor moral attitudes established, by legislation. Some opportunities for vice can be prevented or curbed, but as experience shows it is extremely difficult to create legislative controls that cannot be evaded. In 1965 legislation was enacted to bring under control the so-called dancing schools. The legislation has been effective to the extent that, as far as I am aware, dancing schools are no longer a serious problem, but ineffective to the extent that the services formerly provided by establishments passing as dancing schools are now provided in so-called barber shops, soda fountains and so on. In other words, even if legislation can be devised to license and control at any rate some of these establishments, it may not be any more effective than the legislation that I have already referred to.
Several members have referred to the Report of the Ad Hoc Committee on Boarding Houses, which made recommendations relating to the licensing of such establishments with a view to the elimination of vice. I understand that this report was not by any means unanimously supported in this Council, and that this was chiefly because of doubts as to the effectiveness and practicability of the measures proposed. Certainly subsequent examination of those measures in greater detail than was possible for the Ad Hoc Committee has revealed various practical difficulties. These difficulties are not imaginary; whether or not they will turn out to be insuperable on further examination, I cannot at present say, nor can I say whether, if the proposals of the Ad Hoc Committee turn out not to be practicable, some alternative action towards the same end can be devised. I do, however, intend to pursue all these matters further. In the meantime I think I should make it clear that establishments of the kind that have been referred to by several members are in fact receiving a great deal of attention from the Police who carry out frequent raids under the provisions of the Protection of Women and Juveniles Ordinance. I cannot give figures on the number of raids carried out, but within the past six months 226 persons have been convicted as a result of raids on female barber shops, coffee houses and the like, 34 in connexion with the operation of brothels, 716 for prostitution or loitering, 107 for offences
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of course anticipate their conclusions or what action may result from them; I would only say at this stage that not everyone would neces- sarily agree with Mr. CHEONG-LEEN in making a retirement pension the first priority in a programme of social security. In saying this my intention is not in any way to play down the problems that old age and retirement create, but merely to suggest that there may be other needs no less pressing, and possibly more so, including for example assistance during the illness of a breadwinner or assistance to a widow with dependent children.
Mr. CHEONG-LEEN's remarks on a National Pension Fund were made in the context of the inroads that he believes that rapid economic growth and the population explosion have made into traditional Chinese family ties and responsibilities. The extent of this erosion of tradi- tional standards and patterns of behaviour is the subject of a large scale research project which was launched earlier in the summer, the results of which will not be known for about two years. Meantime, whether one assesses the extent of the erosion at a high, medium or a low level there will, I imagine, be few who will contend that it does not exist. Its effects, I would suggest, are to be seen not only in terms of the financial support of the aged; it underlies many of the unhealthy symptoms to which Mr. CHEONG-LEEN and other speakers have referred. While I am neither a sociologist nor a psychologist, I would suggest that even a non-ologist can legitimately regard the weakening of family ties, traditions and patterns of behaviour as one of the factors that help to create the clientele for the bogus soda fountains, barber shops, for which neither Mr. WONG nor I have a very great use (Laughter), boarding houses, etc. to which reference has been made, and that provide the audiences willing to pay to see indecent films and indecent exhibitions.
The existence of these establishments and facilities for vice must be a matter of concern for all who have the interests of our city and of our young people at heart. Of course the commercialization and exploitation of sex in all its forms is a phenomenon which occurs over the greater part of the earth, and one of its basic causes is an equally universal appetite; it would be a very strange thing if Hong Kong did not have a problem that arises in societies everywhere. One cannot however take recognition of these facts to the point of indifference, particularly where there is a danger that immature minds may be cor- rupted. Let us however honestly recognize that any efforts that may be made to prevent the kind of things to which members have referred are attended by genuine practical difficulties, to recognize which is not a sign of indifference. The concern that many have rightly expressed has to be translated into practical action. Proposals for action have also to be related to another laudable principle, that we should not encroach unjustifiably on the liberty of the individual. In our efforts
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
417
to remove features in our social life that are held by many to be not only undesirable but also damaging there is a risk of resorting to measures which could have equally undesirable effects. In particular it is necessary to avoid creating additional opportunities for corruption or instituting controls which, without in themselves being really effec- tive in eliminating vice, give fresh opportunities to members of the black societies to get a hold on purveyors or patrons of vice.
Let us, too, frankly recognize that, whatever additional preventive measures we may seek to apply by legislation, the only effective pro- tection comes from a conviction on the part of the individual that there are things to be resisted and shunned because they are wrong. Immorality cannot be abolished, nor moral attitudes established, by legislation. Some opportunities for vice can be prevented or curbed, but as experience shows it is extremely difficult to create legislative controls that cannot be evaded. In 1965 legislation was enacted to bring under control the so-called dancing schools. The legislation has been effective to the extent that, as far as I am aware, dancing schools are no longer a serious problem, but ineffective to the extent that the services formerly provided by establishments passing as dancing schools are now provided in so-called barber shops, soda fountains and so on. In other words, even if legislation can be devised to license and control at any rate some of these establishments, it may not be any more effec- tive than the legislation that I have already referred to.
Several members have referred to the Report of the Ad Hoc Com- mittee on Boarding Houses, which made recommendations relating to the licensing of such establishments with a view to the elimination of vice. I understand that this report was not by any means unanimously supported in this Council, and that this was chiefly because of doubts as to the effectiveness and practicability of the measures proposed. Certainly subsequent examination of those measures in greater detail than was possible for the Ad Hoc Committee has revealed various practical difficulties. These difficulties are not imaginary; whether or not they will turn out to be insuperable on further examination, I cannot at present say, nor can I say whether, if the proposals of the Ad Hoc Committee turn out not to be practicable, some alternative action towards the same end can be devised. I do, however, intend to pursue all these matters further. In the meantime I think I should make it clear that establishments of the kind that have been referred to by several members are in fact receiving a great deal of attention from the Police who carry out frequent raids under the provisions of the Protection of Women and Juveniles Ordinance. I cannot give figures on the number of raids carried out, but within the past six months 226 persons have been convicted as a result of raids on female barber shops, coffee houses and the like, 34 in connexion with the operation of brothels, 716 for prostitution or loitering, 107 for offences
Page 222 of 27
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