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414
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
One of our aims, as set out in the statement which is the subject of this debate, is "to continue to institute measures designed to improve the integration of the residents (of resettlement estates) into the general community". This form of words, or something like it, has appeared year after year, and each time I look at it I become less sure that I know what it means, or that we as a Council know what we mean. Perhaps it goes back to the early days when the word "refugee" may have been in our vocabulary, and when members may have been afraid of the possibility of creating a sort of ghetto in which the early settlers would be housed and then forgotten. Of course it never worked out like that, for the estates are not just places where people have rooms in which to live. There are shops, workshops, restaurants and bazaars in which they buy their daily necessities and many earn or supplement their living; post offices, telephone booths, bus stations and police posts are provided if these do not already exist nearby; there are recreation grounds, primary schools, clinics, welfare institutions, and soon I hope there will be banks. Tenants can pay their rent and rates on the spot, and take their troubles to the agent of their landlord at any time of the day. In all these respects the estates are no worse off than other densely populated parts of the urban areas and better off than some. But to what extent do we want them to be self-contained? Is self-containment synonymous with integration as one speaker seemed to suggest? Surely if they were completely self-contained with secondary schools, hospitals, cinemas, swimming pools, factories, the lot, so that the residents need never go outside the confines of their estates, they would turn in on themselves and cease to be members of the wider community of Hong Kong. I suggest that, whatever we mean by "integration", we cannot and should not intend to create completely self-contained communities which have no need to mix with the rest of the population. I propose therefore, that next year we should take a closer look at this paragraph and with this reservation, Mr. Chairman, I have much pleasure in supporting the motion. (Applause).
DR. R. H. S. LEE: On a point of clarification, Mr. Chairman, may I add a word to what I said in my speech? I am very glad we have Mr. HOLMES here as he was the first Commissioner for Resettlement. Prior to his being seated on the Council, we had what is known as a working party, on which I did not serve. The Chairman of the Working Party was Mr. BOWRING, who was then the Director of Public Works. We also had Mr. P. D. Au who represented the elected members and other members. We should not forget their services. I am not fighting for my own personal image, but for the Urban Council who really started to initiate the resettlement programme. I think Mr. HOLMES will bear me out that it was with the consent of the Urban Council that he was able to become a member of the Urban Council. I think he had a great fear that the Elected Members might not agree to his addition on the Urban Council. What I want to make clear is that what I said in my speech relates to the whole Council. It is really the Urban Council's work not mine. I hope that is clear, that is the point I want to clear. I am not claiming all the merit for myself. I feel that all the work we do here is the work of everybody. I hope that is clear. (Applause).
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MR. H. M. G. FORSGATE: To further clarify, may I point out that the Kowloon Residents' Association long before that date drew attention to this situation developing.
SECRETARY FOR CHINESE AFFAIRS: I do not know if I am free to speak, Sir, in terms of Standing Orders, but on a point of what you might call personal explanation, since I was personally referred to by Dr. LEE, I am very glad to confirm that this Council did play a central part in the formulation of the unified approach towards squatter clearance which took place at the beginning of 1954. I am sure that it was no part of Mr. BARTY'S intention to belittle this part played by this Council.
COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT: No Sir, I entirely associate myself with Mr. HOLMES' remarks. (Applause).
DIRECTOR OF SOCIAL WELFARE: Mr. Chairman, now that the air is entirely clear (Laughter), may I rise to speak to the motion and in doing so I propose to begin where my predecessor left off a year ago. Speaking on the subject of social security, Mr. BARON at that time said that consultation had taken place with representatives and advisers from the Ministry of Overseas Development and the International Labour Office and that two officers had been sent on an International Labour Office Asian Regional Training Course. Subsequently, as was announced in the Legislative Council Budget Debate in March this year, an interdepartmental working party was established to examine what provision there is at present for protection against the vicissitudes of sickness, chronic ill health, old age, unemployment, occupational disease and industrial accidents against which the individual cannot be expected to protect himself and his family fully by his own ability and foresight. The Working Party is directed to suggest, in the light of this examination, what improvements might be made either immediately or reasonably soon and what new schemes might be considered. The Committee is making a very thorough examination not only of the apparent needs in Hong Kong and their respective priorities but also of provisions which exist in various countries within the field of social security and which might be considered applicable or adaptable to our circumstances. I have no doubt that they will have noted Mr. CHEONG-LEEN's remarks on a National Pension Fund. Certainly the problem of maintenance in old age is one of the many problems to which they have been giving their attention. One cannot
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Page 221 of 279
414
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
One of our aims, as set out in the statement which is the subject of this debate, is "to continue to institute measures designed to im- prove the integration of the residents (of resettlement estates) into the general community". This form of words, or something like it, has appeared year after year, and each time I look at it I become less sure that I know what it means, or that we as a Council know what we mean. Perhaps it goes back to the early days when the word "refugee" may have been in our vocabulary, and when members may have been afraid of the possibility of creating a sort of ghetto in which the early settlers would be housed and then forgotten. Of course it never worked out like that, for the estates are not just places where people have rooms in which to live. There are shops, workshops, restaurants and bazaars in which they buy their daily necessities and many earn or supplement their living; post offices, telephone booths, bus stations and police posts are provided if these do not already exist nearby; there are recreation grounds, primary schools, clinics, welfare institu- tions, and soon I hope there will be banks. Tenants can pay their rent and rates on the spot, and take their troubles to the agent of their landlord at any time of the day. In all these respects the estates are no worse off than other densely populated parts of the urban areas and better off than some. But to what extent do we want them to be self- contained? Is self-containment synonymous with integration as one speaker seemed to suggest? Surely if they were completely self- contained with secondary schools, hospitals, cinemas, swimming pools, factories, the lot, so that the residents need never go outside the con- fines of their estates, they would turn in on themselves and ceases to be members of the wider community of Hong Kong. I suggest that, whatever we mean by "integration", we cannot and should not intend to create completely self-contained communities which have no need to mix with the rest of the population. I propose therefore, that next year we should take a closer look at this paragraph and with this reservation, Mr. Chairman, I have much pleasure in supporting the motion. (Applause).
DR. R. H. S. LEE: On a point of clarification, Mr. Chairman, may I add a word to what I said in my speech? I am very glad we have Mr. HOLMES here as he was the first Commissioner for Resettle- ment. Prior to his being seated on the Council, we had what is known as a working party, on which I did not serve. The Chairman of the Working Party was Mr. BOWRING, who was then the Director of Public Works. We also had Mr. P. D. Au who represented the elected members and other members. We should not forget their services. I am not fighting for my own personal image, but for the Urban Council who really started to initiate the resettlement programme. I think Mr. HOLMES will bear me out that it was with the consent of the Urban Council that he was able to become a member of the Urban Council. I think he had a great fear that the Elected Members might
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
415
not agree to his addition on the Urban Council. What I want to make clear is that what I said in my speech relates to the whole Council. It is really the Urban Council's work not mine. I hope that is clear, that is the point I want to clear. I am not claiming all the merit for myself. I feel that all the work we do here is the work of everybody. I hope that is clear. (Applause).
MR. H. M. G. FORSGATE:-To further clarify, may I point out that the Kowloon Residents' Association long before that date drew attention to this situation developing.
SECRETARY FOR CHINESE AFFAIRS: -I do not know if I am free to speak, Sir, in terms of Standing Orders, but on a point of what you might call personal explanation, since I was personally referred to by Dr. LEE, I am very glad to confirm that this Council did play a central part in the formulation of the unified approach towards squatter clear- ance which took place at the beginning of 1954. I am sure that it was no part of Mr. BARTY'S intention to belittle this part played by this Council.
COMMISSIONER FOR RESETTLEMENT: -No Sir, I entirely associate myself with Mr. HOLMES' remarks. (Applause).
DIRECTOR OF SOCIAL WELFARE:-Mr. Chairman, now that the air is entirely clear (Laughter), may I rise to speak to the motion and in doing so I propose to begin where my predecessor left off a year ago. Speaking on the subject of social security, Mr. BARON at that time said that consultation had taken place with representatives and advisers from the Ministry of Overseas Development and the International Labour Office and that two officers had been sent on an International Labour Office Asian Regional Training Course. Subsequently, as was announced in the Legislative Council Budget Debate in March this year, an interdepartmental working party was established to examine what provision there is at present for protection against the vicissitudes of sickness, chronic ill health, old age, unemployment, occupational disease and industrial accidents against which the individual cannot be expected to protect himself and his family fully by his own ability and foresight. The Working Party is directed to suggest, in the light of this examination, what improvements might be made either im- mediately or reasonably soon and what new schemes might be con- sidered. The Committee is making a very thorough examination not only of the apparent needs in Hong Kong and their respective priori- ties but also of provisions which exist in various countries within the field of social security and which might be considered applicable or adaptable to our circumstances. I have no doubt that they will have noted Mr. CHEONG-LEEN's remarks on a National Pension Fund. Cer- tainly the problem of maintenance in old age is one of the many problems to which they have been giving their attention. One cannot
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