1965 — Page 34

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

the urban area would be extremely hard and perhaps Hong Kong is not climatically entirely suitable for a zoo. I think that perhaps the Urban Amenities Select Committee might well find itself able to recommend the inclusion of an aquarium house (not an oceanarium) and a reptile house in one of our present or presently available open spaces in the urban area—for example in Kowloon Tsai Park development Stage II. This could well be a start for a larger project such as a zoo which might be developed at a later stage along the hillslopes adjoining the Lung Cheung Road, for example, which would give many natural and suitable areas for the keeping and care of animals. But obviously Mr. BERNACCHI is right and the Urban Amenities Select Committee must first be requested to study the need for and feasibility of a municipal zoo and make recommendations to this Council.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, on a point of clarification, I think I made it quite clear when I moved this motion that I had in mind that any consideration for a zoo should be outside the urban areas. I think that is the whole point why I have suggested that there should be a special committee for it, because the setting up of such a zoo would be outside the purview of this Council. The zoo would be in the New Territories, and for this reason, I think it is more appropriate that there should be a special committee.

MR. BERNACCHI: -Then, I think, on a point of order, that this motion as originally proposed is ultra vires as not having been submitted to the Standing Committee of the Whole Council first. I did not have that impression from Mr. Hilton CHEONG-LEEN's original speech, and I am of the clear opinion that to be of use to the population of Hong Kong it should be centrally situated. I agree with Dr. BELL when she suggests perhaps along the Lung Cheung Road, but certainly the New Territories requires transport of a sort that is not available to the ordinary man-in-the-street at present—but, of course, I have now moved an amendment.

CHAIRMAN: -Could you perhaps tell us, Sir, the exact terms of your amendment?

MR. BERNACCHI: -The amendment is: That this Council requests the Urban Amenities Select Committee to study the need for and if considered feasible to make recommendations in respect of a municipal zoo for Hong Kong.

CHAIRMAN: -Sir, this is in substitution of the original motion?

MR. BERNACCHI: -It can be called an amendment or substitution. The amendment is the "Urban Amenities Select Committee" instead of the "Standing Committee of the Whole appoint a Sub-Committee”, and the introduction of "the feasibility" after "the need for".

....

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

CHAIRMAN: -The amendment proposed in the original motion is in this regard: the deletion of the word "Standing" in the first line and the insertion, instead of "Standing", of the words "Urban Amenities Select"; the deletion of the word "Whole" in the first line; and the insertion of the words "and feasibility of" after the words "to study the need for".

MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Could that be read out, Mr. Chairman?

CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR. BERNACCHI: -Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, I would refer to Standing Order 10(14)(b) regarding contents of amendments: to leave out words and insert or add others.

CHAIRMAN: -The amendment is in order, Sir—to leave out and insert words, and this is what I am trying to do now. Sir, may I read the amended motion as I understand it, as we have to take a vote on it. That the Urban Amenities Select Committee of the Council do appoint a Sub-Committee to study the need for and feasibility of and to make recommendations in respect of a municipal zoo for Hong Kong.

MR. BERNACCHI: -That is not really the motion, Mr. Chairman. I am sorry to disagree, but the amendment is "That this Council requests the Urban Amenities Select Committee to study the need for". Whether they appoint a Sub-Committee is up to them, not for this Whole Council to direct them to appoint a Sub-Committee.

CHAIRMAN: Sir, it could be done by deleting also the words "do appoint a Sub-Committee to", so that the amended motion would read:

That the Urban Amenities Select Committee of the Council do study the need for and feasibility of and make recommendations in respect of a municipal zoo for Hong Kong.

MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, as the amendment has been proposed and seconded, may I suggest that what Mr. BERNACCHI has pointed out is right. That if the intention of the motion as explained by Mr. CHEONG-LEEN holds good, then leave of the Standing Committee of the Whole Council must be sought before introducing the motion. Therefore, if this amendment were to be defeated then the whole motion could not stand without leave of the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. So the easiest way out of the predicament in which the proponent of the original motion finds himself would be to accept the amendment, which I suggest that all parties do.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, I think I have expressed myself pretty clearly as to my intention when speaking on this motion. Now do I have a ruling that if this amendment were accepted the motion, as amended, would still be valid?

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46 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL the urban area would be extremely hard and perhaps Hong Kong is not climatically entirely suitable for a zoo. I think that perhaps the Urban Amenities Select Committee might well find itself able to recommend the inclusion of an aquarium house (not an oceanarium) and a reptile house in one of our present or presently available open spaces in the urban area—for example in Kowloon Tsai Park development Stage II. This could well be a start for a larger project such as a zoo which might be developed at a later stage along the hillslopes adjoining the Lung Cheung Road, for example, which would give many natural and suitable areas for the keeping and care of animals. But obviously Mr. BERNACCHI is right and the Urban Amenities Select Committee must first be requested to study the need for and feasibility of a municipal zoo and make recommendations to this Council. MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, on a point of clarification, I think I made it quite clear when I moved this motion that I had in mind that any consideration for a zoo should be outside the urban areas. I think that is the whole point why I have suggested that there should be a special committee for it, because the setting up of such a zoo would be outside the purview of this Council. The zoo would be in the New Territories, and for this reason, I think it is more appropriate that there should be a special committee. MR. BERNACCHI: -Then, I think, on a point of order, that this motion as originally proposed is ultra vires as not having been submitted to the Standing Committee of the Whole Council first. I did not have that impression from Mr. Hilton CHEONG-LEEN's original speech, and I am of the clear opinion that to be of use to the population of Hong Kong it should be centrally situated. I agree with Dr. BELL when she suggests perhaps along the Lung Cheung Road, but certainly the New Territories requires transport of a sort that is not available to the ordinary man-in-the-street at present—but, of course, I have now moved an amendment. CHAIRMAN: -Could you perhaps tell us, Sir, the exact terms of your amendment? MR. BERNACCHI: -The amendment is: That this Council requests the Urban Amenities Select Committee to study the need for and if considered feasible to make recommendations in respect of a municipal zoo for Hong Kong. CHAIRMAN: -Sir, this is in substitution of the original motion? MR. BERNACCHI: -It can be called an amendment or substitution. The amendment is the "Urban Amenities Select Committee" instead of the "Standing Committee of the Whole appoint a Sub-Committee”, and the introduction of "the feasibility" after "the need for". .... HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 47 CHAIRMAN: -The amendment proposed in the original motion is in this regard: the deletion of the word "Standing" in the first line and the insertion, instead of "Standing", of the words "Urban Amenities Select"; the deletion of the word "Whole" in the first line; and the insertion of the words "and feasibility of" after the words "to study the need for". MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Could that be read out, Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN: Yes. MR. BERNACCHI: -Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, I would refer to Standing Order 10(14)(b) regarding contents of amendments: to leave out words and insert or add others. CHAIRMAN: -The amendment is in order, Sir—to leave out and insert words, and this is what I am trying to do now. Sir, may I read the amended motion as I understand it, as we have to take a vote on it. That the Urban Amenities Select Committee of the Council do appoint a Sub-Committee to study the need for and feasibility of and to make recommendations in respect of a municipal zoo for Hong Kong. MR. BERNACCHI: -That is not really the motion, Mr. Chairman. I am sorry to disagree, but the amendment is "That this Council requests the Urban Amenities Select Committee to study the need for". Whether they appoint a Sub-Committee is up to them, not for this Whole Council to direct them to appoint a Sub-Committee. CHAIRMAN: Sir, it could be done by deleting also the words "do appoint a Sub-Committee to", so that the amended motion would read: That the Urban Amenities Select Committee of the Council do study the need for and feasibility of and make recommendations in respect of a municipal zoo for Hong Kong. MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, as the amendment has been proposed and seconded, may I suggest that what Mr. BERNACCHI has pointed out is right. That if the intention of the motion as explained by Mr. CHEONG-LEEN holds good, then leave of the Standing Committee of the Whole Council must be sought before introducing the motion. Therefore, if this amendment were to be defeated then the whole motion could not stand without leave of the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. So the easiest way out of the predicament in which the proponent of the original motion finds himself would be to accept the amendment, which I suggest that all parties do. MR. CHEONG-LEEN: -Mr. Chairman, I think I have expressed myself pretty clearly as to my intention when speaking on this motion. Now do I have a ruling that if this amendment were accepted the motion, as amended, would still be valid? Page 34 of 382

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46 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL the urban area would be extremely hard and perhaps Hong Kong is not climatically entirely suitable for a zoo. I think that perhaps the Urban Amenities Select Committee might well find itself able to recommend the inclusion of an aquarium house (not an oceanarium) and a reptile house in one of our present or presently available open spaces in the urban area-for example in Kowloon Tsai Park development Stage II. This could well be a start for a larger project such as a zoo which might be developed at a later stage along the hillslopes adjoining the Lung Cheung Road, for example, which would give many natural and suitable areas for the keeping and care of animals. But obviously Mr. BERNACCHI is right and the Urban Amenities Select Committee must first be requested to study the need for and feasibility of a municipal zoo and make recommendations to this Council. MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, on a point of clarification, I think I made it quite clear when I moved this motion that I had in mind that any consideration for a zoo should be outside the urban areas. I think that is the whole point why I have suggested that there should be a special committee for it, because the setting up of such a zoo would be outside the purview of this Council. The zoo would be in the New Territories, and for this reason, I think it is more appro- priate that there should be a special committee. MR. BERNACCHI:-Then, I think, on a point of order, that this motion as originally proposed is ultra vires as not having been sub- mitted to the Standing Committee of the Whole Council first. I did not have that impression from Mr. Hilton CHEONG-LEEN's original speech, and I am of the clear opinion that to be of use to the population of Hong Kong it should be centrally situated. I agree with Dr. BELL when she suggests perhaps along the Lung Cheung Road, but certainly the New Territories requires transport of a sort that is not available to the ordinary man-in-the-street at present-but, of course, I have now moved an amendment. CHAIRMAN: -Could you perhaps tell us, Sir, the exact terms of your amendment? MR. BERNACCHI :- -The amendment is: That this Council requests the Urban Amenities Select Committee to study the need for and if considered feasible to make recommendations in respect of a municipal zoo for Hong Kong. CHAIRMAN:-Sir, this is in substitution of the original motion? MR. BERNACCHI-It can be called an amendment or substitution. The amendment is the "Urban Amenities Select Committee" instead of the "Standing Committee of the Whole appoint a Sub-Committee”, and the introduction of "the feasibility" after "the need for". .... HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 47 CHAIRMAN:----The amendment proposed in the original motion is in this regard: the deletion of the word "Standing" in the first line and the insertion, instead of "Standing", of the words "Urban Amenities Select"; the deletion of the word "Whole" in the first line; and the insertion of the words "and feasibility of" after the words "to study the need for". MR. CHEONG-LEEN: CHAIRMAN: Yes. -Could that be read out, Mr. Chairman? MR. BERNACCHI :-Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, I would refer to Stand- ing Order 10(14)(b) regarding contents of amendments: to leave out words and insert or add others. CHAIRMAN:-The amendment is in order, Sir-to leave out and insert words, and this is what I am trying to do now. Sir, may I read the amended motion as I understand it, as we have to take a vote on it. That the Urban Amenities Select Committee of the Council do appoint a Sub-Committee to study the need for and feasibility of and to make recommendations in respect of a municipal zoo for Hong Kong. MR. BERNACCHI:-That is not really the motion, Mr. Chairman. I am sorry to disagree, but the amendment is "That this Council requests the Urban Amenities Select Committee to study the need for". Whether they appoint a Sub-Committee is up to them, not for this Whole Council to direct them to appoint a Sub-Committee. CHAIRMAN: Sir, it could be done by deleting also the words "do appoint a Sub-Committee to", so that the amended motion would read: That the Urban Amenities Select Committee of the Council do study the need for and feasibility of and make recommenda- tions in respect of a municipal zoo for Hong Kong. MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, as the amendment has been proposed and seconded, may I suggest that what Mr. BERNACCHI has pointed out is right. That if the intention of the motion as explained by Mr. CHEONG-LEEN holds good, then leave of the Standing Committee of the Whole Council must be sought before introducing the motion. There- fore, if this amendment were to be defeated then the whole motion could not stand without leave of the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. So the easiest way out of the predicament in which the pro- ponent of the original motion finds himself would be to accept the amendment, which I suggest that all parties do. MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, I think I have expressed myself pretty clearly as to my intention when speaking on this motion. Now do I have a ruling that if this amendment were accepted the motion, as amended, would still be valid? Page 34 of 382

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HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

the urban area would be extremely hard and perhaps Hong Kong is not climatically entirely suitable for a zoo. I think that perhaps the Urban Amenities Select Committee might well find itself able to recommend the inclusion of an aquarium house (not an oceanarium) and a reptile house in one of our present or presently available open spaces in the urban area-for example in Kowloon Tsai Park development Stage II. This could well be a start for a larger project such as a zoo which might be developed at a later stage along the hillslopes adjoining the Lung Cheung Road, for example, which would give many natural and suitable areas for the keeping and care of animals. But obviously Mr. BERNACCHI is right and the Urban Amenities Select Committee must first be requested to study the need for and feasibility of a municipal zoo and make recommendations to this Council.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, on a point of clarification, I think I made it quite clear when I moved this motion that I had in mind that any consideration for a zoo should be outside the urban areas. I think that is the whole point why I have suggested that there should be a special committee for it, because the setting up of such a zoo would be outside the purview of this Council. The zoo would be in the New Territories, and for this reason, I think it is more appro- priate that there should be a special committee.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Then, I think, on a point of order, that this motion as originally proposed is ultra vires as not having been sub- mitted to the Standing Committee of the Whole Council first. I did not have that impression from Mr. Hilton CHEONG-LEEN's original speech, and I am of the clear opinion that to be of use to the population of Hong Kong it should be centrally situated. I agree with Dr. BELL when she suggests perhaps along the Lung Cheung Road, but certainly the New Territories requires transport of a sort that is not available to the ordinary man-in-the-street at present-but, of course, I have now moved an amendment.

CHAIRMAN: -Could you perhaps tell us, Sir, the exact terms of your amendment?

MR. BERNACCHI :- -The amendment is: That this Council requests the Urban Amenities Select Committee to study the need for and if considered feasible to make recommendations in respect of a municipal zoo for Hong Kong.

CHAIRMAN:-Sir, this is in substitution of the original motion?

MR. BERNACCHI-It can be called an amendment or substitution. The amendment is the "Urban Amenities Select Committee" instead of the "Standing Committee of the Whole appoint a Sub-Committee”, and the introduction of "the feasibility" after "the need for".

....

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

CHAIRMAN:----The amendment proposed in the original motion is in this regard: the deletion of the word "Standing" in the first line and the insertion, instead of "Standing", of the words "Urban Amenities Select"; the deletion of the word "Whole" in the first line; and the insertion of the words "and feasibility of" after the words "to study the need for".

MR. CHEONG-LEEN:

CHAIRMAN:

Yes.

-Could that be read out, Mr. Chairman?

MR. BERNACCHI :-Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, I would refer to Stand- ing Order 10(14)(b) regarding contents of amendments: to leave out words and insert or add others.

CHAIRMAN:-The amendment is in order, Sir-to leave out and insert words, and this is what I am trying to do now. Sir, may I read the amended motion as I understand it, as we have to take a vote on it. That the Urban Amenities Select Committee of the Council do appoint a Sub-Committee to study the need for and feasibility of and to make recommendations in respect of a municipal zoo for Hong Kong.

MR. BERNACCHI:-That is not really the motion, Mr. Chairman. I am sorry to disagree, but the amendment is "That this Council requests the Urban Amenities Select Committee to study the need for". Whether they appoint a Sub-Committee is up to them, not for this Whole Council to direct them to appoint a Sub-Committee.

CHAIRMAN: Sir, it could be done by deleting also the words "do appoint a Sub-Committee to", so that the amended motion would read:

That the Urban Amenities Select Committee of the Council do study the need for and feasibility of and make recommenda- tions in respect of a municipal zoo for Hong Kong.

MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, as the amendment has been proposed and seconded, may I suggest that what Mr. BERNACCHI has pointed out is right. That if the intention of the motion as explained by Mr. CHEONG-LEEN holds good, then leave of the Standing Committee of the Whole Council must be sought before introducing the motion. There- fore, if this amendment were to be defeated then the whole motion could not stand without leave of the Standing Committee of the Whole Council. So the easiest way out of the predicament in which the pro- ponent of the original motion finds himself would be to accept the amendment, which I suggest that all parties do.

MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, I think I have expressed myself pretty clearly as to my intention when speaking on this motion. Now do I have a ruling that if this amendment were accepted the motion, as amended, would still be valid?

1965 — Page 34

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