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Councils and not as at present composed partly of unofficials who are on neither, and who are unavailable to answer questions.

I agree with Mr. Hu that this motion is too vague, I also agree that if the Legislative Council is to continue to exist it must be partly elected. There has been an expansion in the numbers of the Legislative Council, but not in the esprit de corps or in the enlivenment of the Legislative Council meetings, and only by having a partly elected Legislative Council whose eyes are turned toward the electors and not towards the Governor, can the Legislative Council meetings be enlivened and begin to compete with the Urban Council meetings. The elected members act almost as a catalyst and the nominated members compete with the elected members to out-do the elected members in motions, asking of questions, and general liveliness which is not the case in the Legislative Council.

I agree with Dr. BELL that we should have our own finances, the charges of rates. The Government charges rates, but they are put into the general revenue. How ridiculous! The rates are the constitutional form of payment for the services that we render to the public, and we should have charge over the rates, and we in fact should fix the amount of rates; and for these reasons, although I support this motion and I shall vote for it, I do say that it is too vague and it does not go far enough.

CHAIRMAN: I do not have much to say upon this motion except primarily that I wish that the mover had given me a copy of his speech earlier, so that I could have gone out and bought an ermine robe and hat of the proper shape.!

MR. CHEONG-LEEN: On a point of protest, you did not ask for it until fifteen minutes ago. (Laughter).

CHAIRMAN: I am touched Sir, for the thought that you would like to elevate me, but I have had no aspirations towards being a mayor, and indeed, Sir, being a lazy person my one ambition in life is to make myself as dispensable as possible. (Laughter).

MR. BERNACCHI: You have not achieved that. (Laughter).

CHAIRMAN: I would just like to mention one thing I heard the other day, on the part of one of my children, my young son because it was rather humbling to me. He was talking to another boy, and the other boy said to him: "What does your Dad do?" My son said, "I'm not sure, something to do with dustbins, I think." (Laughter).

I am second to none in admiration for this Council—perhaps only second to Dr. BELL, who is the fiercest exponent of it that I know. (Laughter).

I support the Council in all its activities, and certainly I feel that it should, and must, develop. But of course, the question is how? The

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Council has put up proposals for geographical extension into the New Territories many times, and the addition to members of the Council, such as the Director of Education and the Director of Medical and Health Services, and inclusion of other departmental heads of department such as the Fire Services Department and Social Welfare. It has asked for representation as a Council on more boards and committees. It has suggested changes of name. Some of these have been approved, but yet the Council by ordinary straightforward municipal development goes on expanding in its activities, and I always think that it goes on increasing in efficiency in what it does. I do not have to repeat what was said in the Annual Conventional Debate recently.

I find it very difficult to accept the statement of Mr. CHEONG-LEEN in regard to the Legislative Council. I do not see how local Government in Hong Kong can possibly develop as it might develop in other parts of the world, and indeed the point was put, I think, in somewhere about 1895 by Joseph CHAMBERLAIN, who I understand set himself against a municipality in Hong Kong for the reason, among others, that the Colony and the municipality would be in great measure co-extensive, and that it would be almost impossible to draw the line between colonial and municipal matters. I do not share the depressing views stated by Mr. CHEONG-LEEN, and I sometimes think myself that we make a mistake in this chamber in sitting here and discussing matters with the blinds drawn. Because if you pull these blinds up and look out on the city, the prospect on the whole is much more cheering, instead of sitting here recounting all the evils.

Many people come here and tell us what a wonderful city we have, and I do not share all this feeling of sadness and muddle that seems to pervade the minds of some of the members.

I have only got to say now that the views expressed in this debate will be forwarded to Government. I do not think members can expect me to make any statement beyond what I have said, and that, as was explained on the 21st December last in respect of Item 49 of the Statement of Aims of the Council, that I have to reserve my position on the question, and I shall certainly have to abstain from voting on this motion.

MR. SALES: Sir, we who are about to die, salute thee. (Laughter). I speak as an appointed member to whose extermination the new Reform Club representative has now also dedicated himself. Nevertheless we, the appointed members, have never failed in our admiration for the elected members, even though they have asked that we be wiped off the face of the earth.

Sir, there are several points made by my elected friends which call for a reply, not only in my name but perhaps, if I may make so bold, also on the part of some of my appointed friends. Mr. CHEONG-LEEN

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