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I urge Government to reconsider its stand on this matter, for this is the least Government should do to prepare the Council for greater responsibilities in the future.

The motion before Council is to be welcomed and has my support, even if it may do no more than keep the issue alive.

MR. HU:- Mr. Chairman, when I read this motion, I thought the wording was very vague and I would like Mr. CHEONG-LEEN to supply to us the substance of this motion. As a matter of fact, Mr. CHEONG-LEEN gave us very high sounding words at the moment that Mrs. WHITE is coming to this Colony. Firstly, as an Urban Councillor for about nine months, I speak honestly, (Laughter). If I read all the documents which are sent to me I wouldn't be able to eat, I wouldn't be able to sleep, I wouldn't be able to even earn my bread and butter. That is a very practical question. We must consider it. The second point I would make is that we cannot enhance our esteem and authority among the people of Hong Kong by only playing with high sounding words. We must do something practical about it. The third point, as a matter of fact the essential point, is not to enlarge the scope or status of this Council. Past experience has told us that although we, the Urban Council, are low in the constitution of Hong Kong, we have less status than Legislative Council and Executive Council, the people of Hong Kong and also the Government do, in fact, respect us more than the Legislative Council and Executive Council. Now this is a question, why is that? I would give two reasons. First, I would congratulate you, Mr. Chairman, and all the members before me, as you have done a very good job in the last ten years. Secondly, you must not forget that here we have ten members elected, and those ten members work desperately hard and want to represent the people of Hong Kong, either by their speech or by what they do. So in the last ten years we earned sufficient respect from the Government and from the people of Hong Kong, but constitutionally we must be in a less position, less important position, than the Legislative Council and Executive Council, so that the essential point is elections.

Now if our power is enlarged, and all the members of this Council could be elected, then our Council would take over the Legislative Council and Executive Council, for Hong Kong is a very small place. As a matter of fact, our Council in a certain way has overlapped the Legislative Council and the Executive Council, so that the point Mr. CHEONG-LEEN made that we do not want to press beyond this Council, is, I think, probably not quite correct. My view is that if we really want to push forward the democratic system in Hong Kong, then either Executive Council or the Legislative Council must have elected members, otherwise we would overlap them. We would take their place. If Government has such intention then my proposal is that all the members of the Urban Council be elected; abolish the Executive and Legislative Councils and make you Mr. Chairman, the Mayor of Hong Kong. (Laughter).

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Council be elected; abolish the Executive and Legislative Councils and make you Mr. Chairman, the Mayor of Hong Kong. (Laughter).

This is the alternative, Mr. Chairman. Do not laugh. That is the alternative. (Laughter). If you seriously consider the present set up of Hong Kong, that is the position. We do not want big words. We want the choosing of this Council, as we see fit.

Now that is my view concerning this motion. If all our members were elected and you, Mr. Chairman, were the Mayor, then what is the position of the Governor? This is the question. If we accept Mr. CHEONG-LEEN's motion, then my view is that it means the independence of Hong Kong, although he said that we don't want self-Government. In my view—of course I don't oppose this motion but I would comment on it—The only way is to have Executive or Legislative Council Members elected to keep the balance of our Council, otherwise I would like to say that we are overlapping the other two Councils.

DR. BELL:- Mr. Chairman, perhaps I should say Mr. Mayor ... (Laughter).

MR. FORSGATE:- Mr. Provost please! (Laughter).

DR. BELL:- I rise to support this motion, but I would like to make one point which I think would be extremely important. I cannot see how under our present financial policy the scope, the future scope and status of this Council can be enlarged or improved, unless this Council is given, as any other Councils would be given, the rates in this city with which to enlarge its scope and status and take action. Without finance I cannot see that there can be any enlargement of scope except in the numbers of people who are sitting in this Chamber.

I think that one of the points which Mr. CHEONG-LEEN did not bring out was the question that Government should give the rates to this Council, so that we have our own finance with which we could then be able to do something about building council schools, council hospitals and have some social welfare under the Council's control, and with that point, Mr. Chairman, I would support Mr. CHEONG-LEEN's motion.

MR. BERNACCHI:- Mr. Chairman, I do not oppose this motion, but it does not go far enough. This Council should be a municipal council, fully elected save for official members, and with an elected mayor as Chairman, as Mr. CHEONG-LEEN and several speakers have said already, (Laughter) its scope extended to education, various aspects of medical and social welfare services, and incorporation of the present Town Planning Board and public transport committees. It should be bi-lingual throughout. The Executive Council i.e. the Governor's cabinet, should include, and be confined to, some members of the Legislative and Urban

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