1965 — Page 302

Urban Council Proceedings 市政局議事錄 All AI Reviewed

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

some of our equipment locally. And while we are on the point of supporting local industry, I feel we should make our view known to the Government that whenever possible, Government requirements should be purchased locally.

CHAIRMAN:-May I say if I may just reply to that question-- I believe that is the principle on which Government works at the moment as far as possible. If materials can be obtained locally they are obtained locally. There is no discrimination in this matter whatsoever.

MOTION FOR POSTPONEMENT OF ITEM 4(2) ON THE AGENDA.

MR. BERNACCHI: If nobody else has any supplementary questions to ask, as Mrs. ELLIOTT is still literally in the air on her mission of sympathy to the United States, I would move under Standing Order 7(f) and Standing Order 10(2) that her motion 4(2) on the agenda be postponed until next month.

CHAIRMAN:-May I suggest that we take item 4(1) first and then I would propose that the Council now resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider both the motion at 4(1) by Mr. CHEONG-LEEN and the action which should be taken on Mrs. ELLIOTT's motion.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Is that in accordance with Standing Orders Mr. Chairman? Because Mrs. ELLIOTT is not available to expound on her motion in Committee of the Whole, it would be inopportune to discuss her motion, as we must discuss in Committee of the Whole before it is discussed in public. Therefore I am deliberately moving that her motion be postponed at this stage rather than later on, which really means that we get into a mix-up over discussion of her motion in committee when she herself is absent.

MR. SALES: Sir, I question whether that procedure can be followed, because the motion as it stands, as proposed by Mrs. ELLIOTT, has not been admitted by the Committee of the Whole, and until that motion has been before the Committee of the Whole, it cannot be treated in this Council in any manner whatsoever, Mr. BERNACCHI's intended procedure should be taken after the Committee of the Whole has considered this matter, and preferably in Committee of the Whole, and you as Chairman after the Committee of the Whole has risen, could make a statement as to the agreed treatment to be given to this motion.

CHAIRMAN:--I was going to propose that we should have a short recess during which we might refresh ourselves with some tea, and then we could consider these two items 4(1) and 4(2).

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MR. HU: Mr. Chairman, firstly in Standing Order 7(f), there are two proposals; One is withdrawal, one is postponement. I think there is nothing to prevent Mr. BERNACCHI from withdrawing this motion at this stage, because, as Mr. SALES said, this has not been accepted, there is nothing to prevent him from withdrawing. But if it has been accepted, after the full committee has discussed this motion, then of course, the proper procedure is to postpone it. It cannot be withdrawn because it has already been discussed. So there are two things. I think if Mr. BERNACCHI wants to withdraw this motion then we withdraw it now. He cannot withdraw it in the full Committee.

MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, far be it for me as an appointed member to contest the learned opinion of Queen's Counsel. (Laughter). But Mr. BERNACCHI is in no position to withdraw any motion, because the motion does not stand in his name, and the motion does not even appear on the agenda except for consideration by Council in Committee of the Whole, so the Council must go into Committee of the Whole before it can consider these two motions, 4(1) and 4(2). A discussion at this stage about either 4(1) or 4(2) is out of order.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, in defence let me say first of all that my motive is not to withdraw the motion but to postpone it now under Standing Order No. 7, "motions which may be moved without notice", (f) "motions for the withdrawal or postponement of any item included in the agenda." Now Mrs. ELLIOTT's motion is included in the agenda, and I am moving that this be postponed until next month.

DR. BELL:- rise to second Mr. BERNACCHI's proposal with which I entirely agree.

MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, it is not a question of whether Dr. BELL agrees with Mr. BERNACCHI. It is rather a question of whether Mr. BERNACCHI can avail himself of Standing Order No. 7. It is a question of fact that these motions did not appear on the agenda of the Urban Council Meeting. Until they have been approved by the Council in Committee of the Whole they are heard on sufferance, if you like the term, so you cannot move something which does not exist. You are making a motion in a vacuum so far as rules of order are concerned, so there we are. If you want to proceed correctly, that is the attitude you take. If you wish to be browbeaten by the Reform Club, again that is your question, not mine.

CHAIRMAN:-I find it difficult to understand why Mr. BERNACCHI is so exercised by this, because the matter can be considered just as adequately in the Committee of the Whole as now, and my ruling is that we should take these two motions 4(1) and 4(2) in Committee of the Whole.

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HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL some of our equipment locally. And while we are on the point of supporting local industry, I feel we should make our view known to the Government that whenever possible, Government requirements should be purchased locally. CHAIRMAN:-May I say if I may just reply to that question-- I believe that is the principle on which Government works at the moment as far as possible. If materials can be obtained locally they are obtained locally. There is no discrimination in this matter whatsoever. MOTION FOR POSTPONEMENT OF ITEM 4(2) ON THE AGENDA. MR. BERNACCHI: If nobody else has any supplementary questions to ask, as Mrs. ELLIOTT is still literally in the air on her mission of sympathy to the United States, I would move under Standing Order 7(f) and Standing Order 10(2) that her motion 4(2) on the agenda be postponed until next month. CHAIRMAN:-May I suggest that we take item 4(1) first and then I would propose that the Council now resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider both the motion at 4(1) by Mr. CHEONG-LEEN and the action which should be taken on Mrs. ELLIOTT's motion. MR. BERNACCHI:-Is that in accordance with Standing Orders Mr. Chairman? Because Mrs. ELLIOTT is not available to expound on her motion in Committee of the Whole, it would be inopportune to discuss her motion, as we must discuss in Committee of the Whole before it is discussed in public. Therefore I am deliberately moving that her motion be postponed at this stage rather than later on, which really means that we get into a mix-up over discussion of her motion in committee when she herself is absent. MR. SALES: Sir, I question whether that procedure can be followed, because the motion as it stands, as proposed by Mrs. ELLIOTT, has not been admitted by the Committee of the Whole, and until that motion has been before the Committee of the Whole, it cannot be treated in this Council in any manner whatsoever, Mr. BERNACCHI's intended procedure should be taken after the Committee of the Whole has considered this matter, and preferably in Committee of the Whole, and you as Chairman after the Committee of the Whole has risen, could make a statement as to the agreed treatment to be given to this motion. CHAIRMAN:--I was going to propose that we should have a short recess during which we might refresh ourselves with some tea, and then we could consider these two items 4(1) and 4(2). Page 303 of 382 584 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL MR. HU: Mr. Chairman, firstly in Standing Order 7(f), there are two proposals; One is withdrawal, one is postponement. I think there is nothing to prevent Mr. BERNACCHI from withdrawing this motion at this stage, because, as Mr. SALES said, this has not been accepted, there is nothing to prevent him from withdrawing. But if it has been accepted, after the full committee has discussed this motion, then of course, the proper procedure is to postpone it. It cannot be withdrawn because it has already been discussed. So there are two things. I think if Mr. BERNACCHI wants to withdraw this motion then we withdraw it now. He cannot withdraw it in the full Committee. MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, far be it for me as an appointed member to contest the learned opinion of Queen's Counsel. (Laughter). But Mr. BERNACCHI is in no position to withdraw any motion, because the motion does not stand in his name, and the motion does not even appear on the agenda except for consideration by Council in Committee of the Whole, so the Council must go into Committee of the Whole before it can consider these two motions, 4(1) and 4(2). A discussion at this stage about either 4(1) or 4(2) is out of order. MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, in defence let me say first of all that my motive is not to withdraw the motion but to postpone it now under Standing Order No. 7, "motions which may be moved without notice", (f) "motions for the withdrawal or postponement of any item included in the agenda." Now Mrs. ELLIOTT's motion is included in the agenda, and I am moving that this be postponed until next month. DR. BELL:- rise to second Mr. BERNACCHI's proposal with which I entirely agree. MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, it is not a question of whether Dr. BELL agrees with Mr. BERNACCHI. It is rather a question of whether Mr. BERNACCHI can avail himself of Standing Order No. 7. It is a question of fact that these motions did not appear on the agenda of the Urban Council Meeting. Until they have been approved by the Council in Committee of the Whole they are heard on sufferance, if you like the term, so you cannot move something which does not exist. You are making a motion in a vacuum so far as rules of order are concerned, so there we are. If you want to proceed correctly, that is the attitude you take. If you wish to be browbeaten by the Reform Club, again that is your question, not mine. CHAIRMAN:-I find it difficult to understand why Mr. BERNACCHI is so exercised by this, because the matter can be considered just as adequately in the Committee of the Whole as now, and my ruling is that we should take these two motions 4(1) and 4(2) in Committee of the Whole. Page 304 of 382 585

Baseline (Original)

$82 Page 302 of 382 582 HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL some of our equipment locally. And while we are on the point of sup- porting local industry, I feel we should make our view known to the Government that whenever possible, Government requirements should be purchased locally. CHAIRMAN:-May I say if I may just reply to that question-- I believe that is the principle on which Government works at the moment as far as possible. If materials can be obtained locally they are obtained locally. There is no discrimination in this matter whatsoever. MOTION FOR POSTPONEMENT OF ITEM 4(2) ON THE AGENDA. MR. BERNACCHI: If nobody else has any supplementary questions to ask, as Mrs. ELLIOTT is still literally in the air on her mission of sym- pathy to the United States, I would move under Standing Order 7(ƒ) and Standing Order 10(2) that her motion 4(2) on the agenda be postponed until next month. CHAIRMAN:-May I suggest that we take item 4(1) first and then I would propose that the Council now resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider both the motion at 4(1) by Mr. CHEONG-LEEN and the action which should be taken on Mrs. ELLIOTT's motion. MR. BERNACCHI:-Is that in accordance with Standing Orders Mr. Chairman? Because Mrs. ELLIOTT is not available to expound on her motion in Committee of the Whole, it would be inopportune to discuss her motion, as we must discuss in Committee of the Whole before it is discussed in public. Therefore I am deliberately moving that her motion be postponed at this stage rather than later on, which really means that we get into a mix-up over discussion of her motion in committee when she herself is absent. MR. SALES: Sir, I question whether that procedure can be followed, because the motion as it stands, as proposed by Mrs. ELLIOTT, has not been admitted by the Committee of the Whole, and until that motion has been before the Committee of the Whole, it cannot be treated in this Council in any manner whatsoever, Mr. BERNACCHI's intended procedure should be taken after the Committee of the Whole has considered this matter, and preferably in Committee of the Whole, and you as Chairman after the Committee of the Whole has risen, could make a statement as to the agreed treatment to be given to this motion. CHAIRMAN:--I was going to propose that we should have a short recess during which we might refresh ourselves with some tea, and then we could consider these two items 4(1) and 4(2). HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL 583 MR. HU: Mr. Chairman, firstly in Standing Order 7(f), there One is withdrawal, one is postponement. I are two proposals; think there is nothing to prevent Mr. BERNACCHI from withdrawing this motion at this stage, because, as Mr. SALES said, this has not been accepted, there is nothing to prevent him from withdrawing. But if it has been accepted, after the full committee has discussed this motion, then of course, the proper procedure is to postpone it. It cannot be withdrawn because it has already been discussed. So there are two things. I think if Mr. BERNACCHI wants to withdraw this motion then we withdraw it now. He cannot withdraw it in the full Committee. MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, far be it for me as an appointed member to contest the learned opinion of Queen's Counsel. (Laughter). But Mr. BERNACCHI is in no position to withdraw any motion, because the motion does not stand in his name, and the motion does not even appear on the agenda except for consideration by Council in Commit- tee of the Whole, so the Council must go into Committee of the Whole before it can consider these two motions, 4(1) and 4(2). A discussion at this stage about either 4(1) or 4(2) is out of order. MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, in defence let me say first of all that my motive is not to withdraw the motion but to postpone it now under Standing Order No. 7, "motions which may be moved without notice", (f) "motions for the withdrawal or postponement of any item included in the agenda." Now Mrs. ELLIOTT's motion is included in the agenda, and I am moving that this be postponed until next month. DR. BELL:- rise to second Mr. BERNACCHI's proposal with which I entirely agree. MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, it is not a question of whether Dr. BELL agrees with Mr. BERNACCHI. It is rather a question of whether Mr. BERNACCHI can avail himself of Standing Order No. 7. It is a question of fact that these motions did not appear on the agenda of the Urban Council Meeting. Until they have been approved by the Council in Committee of the Whole they are heard on sufferance, if you like the term, so you cannot move something which does not exist. You are making a motion in a vacuum so far as rules of order are concerned, so there we are. If you want to proceed correctly, that is the attitude you take. If you wish to be browbeaten by the Reform Club, again that is your question, not mine. CHAIRMAN:-I find it difficult to understand why Mr. BERNACCHI is so exercised by this, because the matter can be considered just as adequately in the Committee of the Whole as now, and my ruling is that we should take these two motions 4(1) and 4(2) in Committee of the

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Page 302 of 382

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HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

some of our equipment locally. And while we are on the point of sup- porting local industry, I feel we should make our view known to the Government that whenever possible, Government requirements should be purchased locally.

MOTION FOR POSTPONEMENT OF ITEM 4(2) ON THE AGENDA.

MR. BERNACCHI: If nobody else has any supplementary questions to ask, as Mrs. ELLIOTT is still literally in the air on her mission of sym- pathy to the United States, I would move under Standing Order 7(ƒ) and Standing Order 10(2) that her motion 4(2) on the agenda be postponed until next month.

CHAIRMAN:--I was going to propose that we should have a short recess during which we might refresh ourselves with some tea, and then we could consider these two items 4(1) and 4(2).

HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL

583

MR. HU: Mr. Chairman, firstly in Standing Order 7(f), there

One is withdrawal, one is postponement.

I are two proposals; think there is nothing to prevent Mr. BERNACCHI from withdrawing this motion at this stage, because, as Mr. SALES said, this has not been accepted, there is nothing to prevent him from withdrawing. But if it has been accepted, after the full committee has discussed this motion, then of course, the proper procedure is to postpone it. It cannot be withdrawn because it has already been discussed. So there are two things. I think if Mr. BERNACCHI wants to withdraw this motion then we withdraw it now. He cannot withdraw it in the full Committee.

MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, far be it for me as an appointed member to contest the learned opinion of Queen's Counsel. (Laughter). But Mr. BERNACCHI is in no position to withdraw any motion, because the motion does not stand in his name, and the motion does not even appear on the agenda except for consideration by Council in Commit- tee of the Whole, so the Council must go into Committee of the Whole before it can consider these two motions, 4(1) and 4(2). A discussion at this stage about either 4(1) or 4(2) is out of order.

1965 — Page 302

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