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What this means is that from the time in September, when we put forward our requests, various cuts in those requests have been made, without informing us, or allowing us to discuss them before the final decision was made. We cannot tell whether they had any merit or not; we do not know who made them; we do not know whether he has any qualifications at all to pronounce on sanitation matters. But it is we who have to try to clean the streets with the reduced staff.

If the Establishment Branch considers it can only deal with the head of the Urban Services Department, it means that it considers the Urban Council to be merely an advisory body to the Director. But this is not true. The Urban Council Ordinance shows clearly that it is not an advisory body. It has specific duties and responsibilities, and the function of the Urban Services Department is to carry out its in- structions. So the refusal of the Establishment Branch to deal with the Urban Council was not only an act of discourtesy, it was wrong in principle.

May I suggest that you, Sir, now ask the Secretariat to accept a new procedure: that in future before any cuts are made in our requests and put before the Establishment Sub-Committee, they are referred back to the Estimates Select Committee, who shall then be given the chance to discuss the matter fully, and, if agreement cannot be reached, to make representations to the Establishment Sub-Committee.

If this is still considered "inappropriate", then I think we should make it quite clear to the public that we are being prevented from carrying out our statutory duty and that any failure to keep the streets clean is the direct responsibility, not of us, but of the Establishment Branch of the Colonial Secretariat.

Mr. Chairman, I now formally propose the motion:

That this Council deplores the refusal by the Colonial Secre- tariat to allow a representative of the Establishment Branch to appear before the Estimates Select Committee or the Standing Committee of the Whole Council to dis- cuss the proposed cuts in the number of cleansing staff requested in the 1965/66 Estimates.

DR. R. H. S. LEE:-Mr. Chairman, the Urban Council is Hong Kong's most important administrative Council and the instrument of its policy is the Urban Services Department. If anyone has any doubt on that score he has only to refer to Section 55 of the Urban Council Ordinance 1955. To exercise the Council's statutory duties it must have the tools to do the job. When the draft Estimates are referred to the Council they are thoroughly scrutinized by the Estimates Select Committee. Members of this Select Committee are experienced and knowledgeable Councillors who know from first-hand information the

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needs of this Council. It is a matter for regret that the draft Estimates were cut without reason or explanation. When the responsible officer of the Establishment Branch was invited to explain these cuts, the invitation was refused. I deprecate this attitude. It is an insult to the Council, and such insolence should not be tolerated. To prevent such discourtesy happening again, I suggest that you, Mr. Chairman, should bring this matter to the attention of His Excellency the Governor for disciplinary action, to put it a little higher. (Laughter).

With these comments, Sir, I have pleasure in seconding the motion.

MR. B. A. BERNACCHI :—Mr. Chairman, I rise to support this motion. In fact, on the strength of it, the Reform Club will be happy to entertain an application for membership from Mr. WATSON. (Laughter). I entirely concur with what Mr. WATSON and Dr. LEE have said. I am happy that following the protest by our Estimates Select Committee the 69 principal posts in question (Mr. WATSON has referred to a number of other posts) have now been re-included in this year's Estimates. But the question goes far beyond the particular posts in question and goes to a matter of principle as to whether the Urban Council or the Urban Services Department is responsible for requesting the staff necessary to carry out the instructions of the Council in urban In my submission, the construction of the Urban Council Ordin- ance, particularly Sections 54, 55 and 58, is to the effect that it is the duty of the Urban Council to make representations to the Government as to the staff required for carrying out its duties. Hence we have, and have had, for more than 10 years past, an Estimates Select Committee. Before 1960, Section 55 of the Urban Council Ordinance read:-

areas.

"For the purpose of carrying out the provisions of the law in respect of matters over which the Council exercises control there shall be an Urban Services Department."

The Urban Council was consulted about the amendment to this Section and it was pointed out to the Urban Council that this amend- ment was introduced because the Urban Services Department was going into the New Territories, in particular, to control beaches over which the Urban Council had no statutory authority. It was never repre- sented to this Council that the amendment to Section 55 involved any change in the relationship between the Urban Services Department and the Urban Council as regards urban areas. It is indeed, as Dr. LEE has said, insulting to this Council to have had a refusal by Government to permit a representative of the Establishment Branch to appear before the Estimates Select Committee or the Standing Committee of the Whole Council to discuss and explain the proposed cuts, and now it turns out that the proposed cuts were to be a punishment to the De- partment for having failed to render some report which, in fact, was rendered in August of last year; but even if it had not been rendered,

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