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hitherto everyone has assumed that Government was infallible in most matters.

MR. BERNACCHI :-Mr. Chairman, may I follow Dr. LEE's example by making a personal statement. Before the dump at Gin Drinkers Bay was established, there was a dump at Kwun Tong which was far more smelly and far more dangerous to the health of persons swimming in the harbour itself. I was one of the persons who went over to the dump at Kwun Tong, the Chairman at the time was another, and we all decided that whatever happened to the future of Kwun Tong that dump must be closed and that was the reason for opening the dump at Gin Drinkers Bay.

MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, I am appalled that the experience at Kwun Tong did not lead Government to the taking of measures to prevent a recurrence at Gin Drinkers Bay. I thought for one moment that my two Elected colleagues across the table were defending Govern- ment's position, but it is clear that they have been giving us a great deal of information on this subject. Sir, the situation appears to be even worse than I had thought.

MR. WATSON: Mr. Chairman, we have dealt so far with the past history. I would like to turn now to future action. You say that "further action will have to be taken to prevent indiscriminate dumping of rubbish into the harbour, for example, from ships, reclamation areas, and along the waterfront generally." May I ask if you can inform this Council whether any consultations are taking place with other depart- ments about this matter and, if so, what?

CHAIRMAN:-Sir, I would point out that the cleanliness of the water in the harbour is not the responsibility of the Urban Services Department or the Urban Council, but, as far as I am aware, of the Marine Department. There are only certain aspects of the matters mentioned in the answer which are of direct concern to the Urban Services Department and to the Council, and certainly it is my intention that these should be discussed as soon as possible in the Environmental Hygiene Select Committee. As I have already said, there is now a high degree of co-operation between the Marine Department and the Urban Services Department, and I am sure that we will be kept informed of what the Marine Department is doing.

DR. LEE: Mr. Chairman, what about the incinerators which the relevant Select Committee of the Urban Council has pushed for years and years? Even when Dr. BELL was here we were talking about incinerators. When will they be ordered and built?

CHAIRMAN:-Sir, the incinerators are referred to in paragraph 6 of the memorandum for Members of the Urban Council, Committee

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Paper CW/63/64, which has already been sent to Members, but for your information it is hoped that the first incinerator, which is to be built at Kennedy Town, will be completed in December 1965.

MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, if I may make another personal statement-I do defend Government. When the dump at Gin Drinkers Bay was established, the population of Hong Kong was far less than it is to-day and it was thought by everyone that Gin Drinkers Bay was far enough away not to pollute the harbour. We have been proved wrong, but if we are wrong then I take the blame as much as everyone else on this Council at that time.

MR. SALES: -Mr. Chairman, I must thank Mr. BERNACCHI, through you. Now, I would like simply to express my thanks for the facilities which you have made available to me to inspect the pollution in the harbour and I would like to add, through you, to Mr. BERNACCHI, how this afternoon's proceedings have proved the truth of my statement that there must be an increase in the number of Appointed Members to offset any possible combination of Elected Members and Government representatives in this Council. (Laughter).

MR. CHEONG-LEEN:-Mr. Chairman, arising out of Mr. SAles' question, may I ask you whether you would be good enough, in calculating the total cost of the Gin Drinkers Bay affair to the public, to include the cost of the helicopter service offered to Mr. SALES, which I understand may well be as high as $3,000 per hour? (Laughter).

MR. SALES: It was worth every cent of it to the public. (Laughter).

(7) MR. A. de O. SALES asked the following question:

(a) Has Government agreed as a matter of policy that in every new district that is being laid out, at least ten per cent of the total area will be reserved for public playgrounds and other recreational purposes apart from land set aside for gardens and other such amenities?

(b) Is Government conscious of the urgent need to make good the shortage of playgrounds and such recreational amenities in the older districts where there is high-population den- sity? What measures are being taken in this connexion? THE CHAIRMAN replied as follows: --

Government does not have any general formula which is applied in the reservation of areas in new districts for public playgrounds and other recreational amenities.