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interests and practices of the people of the New Territories, because each rural community has its own special problems and there is no substitute for informed local opinion.
12. The answer to the fourteenth question is No.
13. The reply to the last question is that in 1960 Government decided that the Urban Services Department should assume responsibility in the New Territories for all those matters for which it is responsible in the urban areas. The sphere of statutory responsibility of the Urban Council has not been similarly extended.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, perhaps I may take your para- graphs as opposed to my Questions. As a supplementary to your para- graph 7, are you not aware, Sir, that the Urban Council was given to understand in 1960 that the Government proposed that the Urban Services Department should move in to control beaches but would be advised by although not under the jurisdiction of the Council in such control?
CHAIRMAN: I am aware of that, Sir, and one of the words which I remember reading in connection with the arrangement was that it would be an informal arrangement.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Do you not consider, Sir, that the fact that the Urban Services Department has now moved into the New Territories lock, stock and barrel was a breach of faith with this Council?
CHAIRMAN:-Sir, may I say first that the department has moved in lock and stock, but not barrel. (Laughter). It is operating in matters like food businesses, milk, frozen confections, and hawkers, but the District Commissioner, New Territories, is still, I think, the licensing authority for offensive trades and private slaughterhouses, so the exercise of the Urban Services Department's powers is not quite complete. I do not think, Sir, that this could be regarded as, in any way, a breach of faith. My impression is that in the many and long discussions which took place between Government, the Director of Urban Services and Chairman, Urban Council, and Members of this Council in 1959, it was made clear then that the decision had been made by Government that the Urban Services Department would take over these duties in the New Territories. I would like to repeat that it is not clear to me, Sir, that there has been any breach of faith in this matter.
MR. BERNACCHI:-I am not suggesting for one minute that you, Sir, are guilty of a breach of faith, but in general I am suggesting that this Council was deceived, perhaps innocently enough, into consenting
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to the Urban Services Department moving into the New Territories to control beaches, and that it was taken by surprise by the subsequent developments.
CHAIRMAN:-Sir, my recollection is that this matter formed the subject of a carefully prepared memorandum by the District Commis- sioner, New Territories, in 1958, a copy of which was, I think, put into the hands of all Members of this Council. It was made quite plain in that memorandum that what was in the District Commissioner's mind was that it would be necessary for various general services to be provided in the New Territories and certainly not services limited to the supervision and control of rural beaches. I would have assumed, Sir, from reading these papers that any Member of this Council who took part in these discussions would have been clear in his mind that there would be no limitation to the control of beaches.
MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, arising out of that answer, are we as a Council to understand that through the various Select Committees, Members of the Council, could offer opinion on matters pertaining to the New Territories, for example, in matters concerning resettlement which I consider to be a very serious problem in the New Territories? Could Members of the Council offer opinion in that particular Policy Select Committee?
CHAIRMAN:-I do not think that that was the intention, but if you wish me to take up the point, I will raise it with Government.
MR. SALES: Would you please do so and clarify it to us in Standing Committee of the Whole Council, not in particular reference to resettle- ment but as a whole?
CHAIRMAN:-I would be glad to do so, Sir. As a matter of fact, the views expressed on the question of extension of powers and the exchanges which took place on this subject at the meeting of this Council last November have already been made known to Government and they are receiving consideration.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Perhaps as a supplementary to my friend Mr. SALES' supplementary and in further clarification of your paragraph 8, Sir, could the Urban Council be consulted as to markets, hawkers, cleansing, and as you say, etc.?
CHAIRMAN: Under the present dispensation, Sir, 'No', but if it is your wish that I should refer this matter to Government I will certainly do so.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Is it not a fact, Sir, that the Urban Services Department tries to follow the rulings of this Council in their admin- istration of the services in the New Territories?
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interests and practices of the people of the New Territories, because each rural community has its own special problems and there is no substitute for informed local opinion.
12. The answer to the fourteenth question is No.
13. The reply to the last question is that in 1960 Government decided that the Urban Services Department should assume responsibility in the New Territories for all those matters for which it is responsible in the urban areas. The sphere of statutory responsibility of the Urban Council has not been similarly extended.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Mr. Chairman, perhaps I may take your para- graphs as opposed to my Questions. As a supplementary to your para- graph 7, are you not aware, Sir, that the Urban Council was given to understand in 1960 that the Government proposed that the Urban Services Department should move in to control beaches but would be advised by although not under the jurisdiction of the Council in such control?
CHAIRMAN: I am aware of that, Sir, and one of the words which I remember reading in connection with the arrangement was that it would be an informal arrangement.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Do you not consider, Sir, that the fact that the Urban Services Department has now moved into the New Territories lock, stock and barrel was a breach of faith with this Council?
CHAIRMAN:-Sir, may I say first that the department has moved in lock and stock, but not barrel. (Laughter). It is operating in matters like food businesses, milk, frozen confections, and hawkers, but the District Commissioner, New Territories, is still, I think, the licensing authority for offensive trades and private slaughterhouses, so the exercise of the Urban Services Department's powers is not quite complete. I do not think, Sir, that this could be regarded as, in any way, a breach of faith. My impression is that in the many and long discussions which took place between Government, the Director of Urban Services and Chairman, Urban Council, and Members of this Council in 1959, it was made clear then that the decision had been made by Government that the Urban Services Department would take over these duties in the New Territories. I would like to repeat that it is not clear to me, Sir, that there has been any breach of faith in this matter.
MR. BERNACCHI:-I am not suggesting for one minute that you, Sir, are guilty of a breach of faith, but in general I am suggesting that this Council was deceived, perhaps innocently enough, into consenting
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
363
to the Urban Services Department moving into the New Territories to control beaches, and that it was taken by surprise by the subsequent developments.
CHAIRMAN:-Sir, my recollection is that this matter formed the subject of a carefully prepared memorandum by the District Commis- sioner, New Territories, in 1958, a copy of which was, I think, put into the hands of all Members of this Council. It was made quite plain in that memorandum that what was in the District Commissioner's mind was that it would be necessary for various general services to be provided in the New Territories and certainly not services limited to the supervision and control of rural beaches. I would have assumed, Sir, from reading these papers that any Member of this Council who took part in these discussions would have been clear in his mind that there would be no limitation to the control of beaches.
MR. SALES: Mr. Chairman, arising out of that answer, are we as a Council to understand that through the various Select Committees, Members of the Council, could offer opinion on matters pertaining to the New Territories, for example, in matters concerning resettlement which I consider to be a very serious problem in the New Territories? Could Members of the Council offer opinion in that particular Policy Select Committee?
CHAIRMAN:-I do not think that that was the intention, but if you wish me to take up the point, I will raise it with Government.
MR. SALES: Would you please do so and clarify it to us in Standing Committee of the Whole Council, not in particular reference to resettle- ment but as a whole?
CHAIRMAN:-I would be glad to do so, Sir. As a matter of fact, the views expressed on the question of extension of powers and the exchanges which took place on this subject at the meeting of this Council last November have already been made known to Government and they are receiving consideration.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Perhaps as a supplementary to my friend Mr. SALES' supplementary and in further clarification of your paragraph 8, Sir, could the Urban Council be consulted as to markets, hawkers, cleansing, and as you say, etc.?
CHAIRMAN: Under the present dispensation, Sir, 'No', but if it is your wish that I should refer this matter to Government I will certainly do so.
MR. BERNACCHI:-Is it not a fact, Sir, that the Urban Services Department tries to follow the rulings of this Council in their admin- istration of the services in the New Territories?
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