CO885-24 — Page 347

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

། T ། ། T

Reference :-

C.O. 885

24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

48

13 January 1915.]

OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:

Mr. J. G. BELL and 14 Others.

think the companies would all give every assistance to give them the information, so that we could simply feel in a position that we are not going aground.

(Chairman) I think you will find-at least I hope you will find-that something like that will be done. but there is another point to be considered, and that is the point of view of the shipping concerns which are already endeavouring to compete with this business. If we were to put on these boats at a very much lower rate, the only effect probably would be to bring down freights generally and to drive all bats off that run to the remunerative freights which would be running to France and the other parts of the coasting trade rather than coming to London. I am afraid you would find the effect of not sticking to the market rate of freight would rather be a two-edged weapon. While you, for the moment, would get your coal in at a lower rate, by doing it you would drive what little freight is left on that run off it. That is one thing that we had very much in mind when we decided not to interfere with the market rate.

(Mr. Burnett.) If there were a fixed market rate, say, 4., it would simply be giving the boats to the com- panies who are entitled to them, such as ourselves. we have eight We are very big contractors, and steamers, and the Government have requisitioned and taken seven of them. If there were a fixed rate, say, 4. for those ships, I do not think it would interfere with the market rates at all.

(Chairman) Well, that is what the shipping people tell me, that the effect of fixing a very low rate on these boats would have a disastrous effect on the amount of shipping which is at present offering, out- It all comes back to the side what we can offer you. paint that we have too small number of boats to give you. If we had a sufficient number of boats to guarantee you a sufficient service, quite independent of the boats which are already running, then the position would be quite different.

(Mr. Watson.) With all due deference, of course, it

is the interest of the shipping people to say that.

(Chairman.) I quite agree.

(Mr. Watson.) I could not imagine a shipper giving you any other advice.

(Chairman.) No, but put it in another way. A shipper would probably say, "I can quite imagine the gas companies and the contractors giving you no We have to get "other advice than what they do." at it as a fair compromise and from the point of view of both sides.

(Mr. Watron.) Only I think you will see this. What you said just now rather alarmed me than otherwise, because if the idea is that these 35 boats are to be more or less assimilated to the market conditions of to-day you have opened up a prospect which is of the gloomiest. There are limite even to what we can do. It is almost as bad as no help at all. It would mean this, that the price of gas would go up so very seriously in London that you would have a very great outcry amongst the poor.

(Chairman.) I quite agree. That is why I said at the beginning do not go away with the idea that this is a scheme which is absolutely fixed and is not liable At the to alteration if we find that it is unworkable. esme time we must find some basis of allocation of those bosta and a basis which cannot be impugned. We have to face not only you, but we have to face the shipping world, and we have also to face the Public Accounts Department, which is perhaps a more serious thing than the whole lot. We are liable at the end of this business to have the whole of these financial arrangements overhauled in the House of Commons and shot at from all round.

Therefore we are bound

to try and fix the thing up in a way which is fair to sil That is what I am trying to the interests concerned.

get at.

(Mr. Watson.) We are very anxious, I am sure, to do everything to help you, only what I feel is that there are a great many difficulties. It would be very helpful if you would tell us whether they are to be limited to taking these boats for a voyage.

I

(Chairman.) Yes, I think that in the best way. hope, as we can get more and more boats into the

[Continued.

business, that we would be able to get rates down as they come on.

(Mr. Watson.) Nobody will be allowed to take a boat for three voyages, or anything of that kind P

(Chairman.) At present, no, I think not.

(Mr. Watson.) Because that would be very serious. Suppose there are 30 or 40 people anxious to get boats. and they went to this firm in Newcastle and got the boats for more than one voyage, somebody might be left out.

(Chairman.) No, I do not intend that in the least. I thought you were trying to prove to me that it is better to fix them up for more voyager.

(Mr. Watson.) No, I want to suggest that one voyage should be the extent, because there will be no time to readjust matter. If a certain group takes up the boats for three or four voyages it gives us no chance.

(Chairman) No, I had absolutely no intention of letting a bout for more than one voyage to anybody. Can anybody say what the number of boats is that is normally engaged in the London coal trade? In round numbers what is the number of boats that you employ?

“(Mr. Hamilton Graig.) About 8,000,000 tons a year, by water.

(Chairman.) That represents a fleet of how many! (Mr. Hamilton Graig.) They vary from 1,000 to 7,000 tons. It is difficult to say.

(Chairman.) I suppose it is. But would you say 150 boats are normally employed in carrying coal to

London P

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) I could not say. May I ask if that coasting limit can be clearly defined? The ordinary term includes Rouen. I suppose it means the British Islands, and not what is generally called the coasting trade P

(Chairman.) I think you will have to leave that As far as these boats open at the present moment.

are concerned now, they will be employed entirely in bringing coal to ourselves. We do not intend to put them on to the Rouen route; but circumstances may occur which may render it necessary to send a boat, or perhaps more than one, to other places. But I do not intend that as a general rule. The bosta will be allocated, as far as possible, to bringing coal here and to the South Coast.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) Then are Messrs. Wither. ington and Everitt and Mr. Newbigin to be the sole arbitrators? I might give one example. I am respon- Bible, more or less, for keeping the London County Council tramways and the underground railways supplied. They take coal from Scotland. Will it be my duty to go to Mesars. Witherington and Everitt and explain the position, and ask to be allowed to have one of these boats to go to Scotland?

(Chairman.) Tee; they are our managers for work- ing this thing; but that is no reason why a bout should not go to Scotland for you. Their instructions from us are that the boasts are to be divided up among the interests concerned as fairly sa possible, and that the coal is not absolutely to be drawn from the Tyne. but also from other East Coast ports, and also from Cardiff where necessary, because certain of the electric light companies require their coal from Cardiff. We intend to bring that for them just the same as the others.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) I only drew attention to that because that makes them the arbitrator. We have to convince them whether the Gus Light and Coke Company or the London County Council has most urgency.

(Chairman.) Is not that again the ordinary course of business?

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) Barely, because although they are excellent firms they are not in a position to The know what the requirements are in London. firms you have nominated are not in the business.

(Chairman.) They are up there.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) To some extent; to a very small extent.

(Chairman) I think you will find that they can work, but anyhow, if you want anything particular, or

13 January 1915.]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. J. G. BELL and 14 Others.

if there is any question as to your particular interests not being properly served, you can always came to me.

(Mr. Watson.) I think I would like to take the opinion of the gentlemen here to-day as to whether they do not think that really a very serious crisis is very likely to come about, in any case if most rigid steps are not taken to look after these boats, and to see that they do the most useful work. The position at the present moment is this, that most of us are almost run out, and unless these boats are really applied to the purpose you have in view, either some companies will have to pay fabulous prices for them, or they will have to go without them. It seems to me nothing can avoid the most tremendous competition for those boats. Take the case of the Gas Light and Coke Company; we ought to have been getting from 32,000 to 40,000 tons of coal a week, but our average We has been for the last seven weeks 15,000 tons. cannot go on like that. We have been thinking that this was going to fructify. Now we shall know we have got all we can get. It will mean an inevitable scramble for the boste. After all, we have to look upon the money aide of the thing as well as the other.

(Chairman.) I know. I do not want you to look at it from the point of view that we are trying to make money out of it because there is no question of that.

(Mr. Burnett.) The difficulty will be to get the men to sail. I do not think it will affect the rate of freight, because there will be such a tremendous demand for those ships that it will make no difference to the market whatever, or the very slightest.

(Chairman.) I would rather wait and see what happens. I hope to get the boste out very soon: I cannot tell you how woon, because the difficulty about But we are in getting men is a very great one. negotiation for inen, and we are trying to get them. We are trying to get them to go, but if we cannot get them to go because there is not the manual power to put into the boats, I am afraid neither you nor I can help it

(Mr. Burnett.) But if you fix the maximum freights.

Chairman.) That will not help you.

(Mr. Burnett.) It will stop the very excessive rates that gas companies and other consumers in London will have to pay.

(Chairman.) Will you wait and see what happens? (Mr. F. Lockett.) I hope, as Mr. Hamilton Greig says, that these gentlemen will really seriously con. sider the necessities of these Scotch ports and the Welsh porte as far as London is concerned. They are situated in Newcastle, and I quite foresee there is going to be a tremendous competition for these boats, and the more competition there is the less disposition there will be for these gentlemen to go to the Forth or to South Wales, as long as Mr. Watson will go on paying them the higher rates from the Tyne.

(Chairman.) But you must remember that these gentlemen are only our managers, and that the business is under our control.

(Mr. F. Lockett.) I see; they are not the sole arbitrators?

(Chairman.) No, not at all.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) You have given me some assistance, but, on the other hand, the Admiralty find themselves going on the other tack. Only to-day they told me they have got to take another boat,out of our trade.

(Chairman.) In that I cannot help you.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) May I ask what size you reckon these bosta are? You mentioned just now about 32 boste which will bring up about 35,000 tons a week.

(Chairman.) They are all sorts of sizes. I suppose the average will be 1,500 to 2,000 tons dead weight. 'There are one or two considerably more. There is one vessel at the present moment at Cardiff of nearly 3,000 tons dead weight. We should load her straight away with Cardiff coal as soon as ever we can get a crew for her.

(Mr. Hamilton Greiz.) In the Karpat" one?

· 25140-Ev 1 &c

[Continued.

49

(Chairman.) Yea, she is 7,000 tons. We shall lond her up as soon as we can get a crew for her. I hope things will work out not so badly as you anticipate.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) But do you realise what the demand is ? Have you had that put before you, that Mr. Watson wante 30,000 or 40,000 tons ?

(Chairman) Yes; I know what you want is about 90,000 tons & week. I think that is right. That is the conclusion we came to the other day.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) Our position is rather worse, because many boats have been taken up and diverted to foreign ports, so that we want more than we notified you last week.

(Chairman.) They have gone to foreign porta because there is higher freight. They can get 40s. to Port Said or Marseilles. If we put our freights at such a low figure aa to bring the general freight on the coal trade on the East Coast, or the coal trade to London, down to a very much lower level than freights are elsewhere, you will find all these free boats will string off.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) The good ones are because they are afraid of being commandeered if they remain in the country.

(Chairman.) I know. It is a very serious thing, Honestly I cannot see any solution to it at present-I do not say my ideas will not change-except keeping the freight of these vessels on a level with the general freights. If you bring things down, if you unce interfere with the ordinary level of freight, you are bound to drive off the free boats, and they will go elsewhere.

(Mr. Watson.) May I put it in this way, because I do not quite see the difficulty. It may be my fault. What difference would there be now? The whole position is this: We have got a large number of brats running on contracts for us at the present momeat at 3. We had a fleet originally running at that. Certain of these hats have bean commandeered and taken away by the Government. All we are asking you to do and the freight for these boats is 3., plus the 3. or the Rs. 6d. is to replace the contract boats which have been taken away, with these interned boats, and I cannot see how that would affect the market the least bit in the world. The contract boats

at the present moment are running at 38. and 3. 6d. backwards and forwards for us. That is all they are getting. It has not brought down the freight, and the fact that you have put in some more bonts into the contracts to replace boats which have been taken out of the contracts by the Government-commandeered by the Government-does not seem to ne to make a little bit of difference to the rate which would be paid by us and other people who are anxious to get boats for the journey.

(Chairman.) In what you have already said you have just hit the nail on the head. You said that these boats are tied to you by contract. They are not free boats.

(Mr. Watson.) No, they are not. (Chairman.) They cannot be affected. (Mr. Watson.) No.

It is not the (Chairman.) But it is the free unes. companies who have got their standing contracts that we want to cater for in that way, but these smaller companies who have not got those larga contracts, and it is the free people that will be swept up.

You

(Mr. Watson.) We are all under contract. may take it that there were at the beginning of the war, we will any. 100 boats running under contract for the gas companies and the electric light companies and the water companies at 3. or thereabouts. We would have gone on absolutely without any trouble but for the interference of the Government, which took away, out of that 109 boats, say 30 for the sake of argument. What has happened is this: the gas companies had all started the autumn with fair stocks of coal. They all hoped that things would be better, and they went on with the 50 boats left. They brought a certain amount of coal, but not enough. We have been living on that, but now the stocks have fallen down to such a low condition that it has been necessary for the companies, who were on their beam ends, to go

G