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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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36

4 January 1915.]

OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:

Mr. J. LowREY.

arises on that; it involves me asking questions, perhape, instead of answering them, but it has a bearing on it-it is a point I was to raise later as to what arrangements are to be made for the release of the cargo at Cape Town.

797. We will do that.-May I ask what the Arrangement is?

768. Practically the whole of this cargo, with a very small exception. has been already released, and as to the remainder of the cargo which has not been released we are to telegraph out to Cape Town to release it ón a guarantee which will be given by the Australian Company-The point arises in connection with two letters I have received, one from the representatives of American underwriters and shippers, with whom I have been in telegraphic communication quite indepeu- dently of anything the Committee is doing; they have come to us in the ordinary way to know whether we can assist in certain ways, and broadly what we hoped would be possible was that questions as to the right of the cargo to be released would be transferred from Cape Town to Australia.

769. (Mr. Tennyson.) We have made two or three alternative proposals to Cape Town, and the Govern. ment is moving the court there to say definitely what they will accept. We have suggested as one alternative that the whole thing should be transferred to Australia, and we have also suggested that it should be left to the Australian Government to say, on receipt of the goods in Australia and on examination of the docu- ments, what part of the cargo should go before the Prize Court at Cape Town, and then let the owners of the cargo or the claimants of the cargo prove their title in Cape Town?-It would allow the cargo to get to Australia, and the Australian Government, or some- one representing them, would undertake the duty for the Cape Town authorities of seeing what cargo is enemy cargo and what is not.

770. All our proposals contemplate the cargo going out at once-For instance, here is a letter from a firm of solicitors, who have been in touch with you, Messrs. Parker, Garrett & Co.: The Admiralty solicitors in Cape Town are insisting on being paid their costs of investigating the circumstances of each consignment before cousenting to u release, and their claim has been upheld by the court in Cape Town. If each "separate consignment has to be investigated, these **costs will amount to a very considerable sum, and in addition there will be the costs of the claimants. We trust you will urge on the Colonial Office Committee the desirability of avoiding this useless expenditure. The customs in Australia could easily detain any consignment reasonably suspected of being onemy goods, and the general release granted at Cape Town might be without prejudice to such right. A large number of consignments have already been released, and as to them no question "can arise."

is practically what

we

771. (Chairman.) That wanted; we want to get the stuff on as fast as we can, and we want to get the C1e Town Court to release the cargo as soon as ever they can ?--That, 1 think, will clear the ground and deal with one or two questions that have been raised.

772. As soon as we get this reply from Cape Town the only thing that will then remain will be for you and Mr. Hughes to agree as to how soon you can get the ship away -The moment you are in a position to definitely authorise us. I think that will be done. I Bent for Mr. Richards just before coming down here just to glance through these figures, and I wanted, in case any question arose with regard to the charges of Mr. Hughes and the Federal Company, a little in- formation from him as to what the suggested 5 per cent. was intended to cover. I suggested to Mr. Richards, who will act for Mr. Hughes, that the question of the remuneration to be paid to the Federal Company, or Mr. Hughes might be left in abeyance and perhaps, we He said he would be quite can settle it later on. willing and that he was quite sure we could settle it between us. My own impression is that it may be possible to meet that difficulty and still treat him quite fairly. I wanted to know, for instance, as to whether in

[Continued.

any charge be made he was including the possibility of being in advance to some extent for a little while in connection with the expenses.

779. I think that will have to be taken into con- sideration in settling the remuneration Yea, au to whether he has been promptly put in funds or not,

774. He must be; I want to get the guarantee out of the Australian Government and the money as soon it That get as possible, but I cannot say when I shall

is a matter of detail which could be arranged, and if it is a question of temporarily financing it, we are doing it every day, unfortunately. It would to some extent depend upon that as to how much you should allow him.

775. Obviously?-Mr. Richards dealt with the matter quite frankly. I told him that the view I had was that in a thing of this kind no one should seek to make an unreasonably large profit out of it, and he recognised with me also that we would have no difficulty in fixing what is a fair thing later on. agrees it is not necessary to fix that now, so that a fee or allowance, which would be satisfactory to you, gentlemen, could be agreed later.

He

776. I think we can leave it at that now ? Yes. If you approve of it I will get the preliminary arrange- ments made at once with a view to the provision of a crew, and on the assumption that the vessel is free to leave practically at any time or, at all events, by the time the arrangements can be made.

777. I think we can safely do that--

(Mr. Teunyson.). The only thing is that, supposing the court insists on the most unfavourable alternative to Australia, we do not quite know what the Australian Government will say.

(Chairman.) When do you expect an answer?

(Mr. Tennyson.) I should hope they will move the court this week. I have had an acknowledgment this morning of the telegram we sent them on Saturday. I do not know whether we could find out about the condition of the ship.

778. (Chairman.) There is no reason why we should not get her cleaned. (To the witness.) Will you see to that for us:-There is certain preliminary work which would be wanted. You see, some of the men have got to go from this side, the captain at least.

779. I fancy Mr. Hughes has sent him out; I think he went on Saturday That is so for good. You cannot be quite sure that you may get all the other men you want there.

780. I think you will certainly have to send an engineer? It might have been possible to have picked up a captain there; there is such a thing as a good captain sometimes being available, but it is rather improbable. We can find out as to that; and the cleaning of the ship, I should think, had better be put in hand at once.

781. Yes, please; and as to the cleaning of the ship and any necessary repairs, your people will survey the ship for us -And get her ready to go to sea.

782. You have your own people out there, have you not ?--Yes, and it would very materially assist matters you could get the naval authorities to co-operate.

if

783. Yes, we will; we will telegraph to the Com- m-under-in-chief to say that the Salvage Association will get the ship ready for leaving Thomson. Watson & Company are our agents out there, and they would know them, and I will tell them to get into touch with the Commander-in-chief and that he will assist them in making the arrangements.

784. Yes. They will give you an estimate of the cost of the work, so that we can add.it to our figures! -Yes, and then, I think, we could probably make an inquiry as to the officers too.

785. (Mr. Tennyson.) Shall we get an estimate from them as to the date when the ship would ready to leave?-I think you may assume she would be ready, if need be, before the captain arrives.

786. (Chairman) You have 18 days - Yes, you have time in that way.

787-8. It ought not to be more than at the outside 14 days?—No, but still I can put in an inquiry as to the time as well as the cost. You think that in the

4 January 1915.]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,

Mr. J. LowEKY.

course of a few days you may know definitely whether the legal difficulties are removed. (Chairman.) We hope so.

(Mr. Tennyson.) They will be removed one way or another.

789. (Chairman.) We want to get the ship off as soon as we possibly can!-Then you would approve of leaving the question of the Federal Company's charges to be dealt with later on when you know just what they have done, and what the actual expenses are?

790. Exactly -And you would also approve of reducing the crew a little if that is found prudent?

791. Certainly anything within reason to keep the costs down as much as possible?—I have compared them with half a dozen other ships, and I think it might be reduced a little more.

792. I thought so too, but they were very insistent when they were here?-I think probably they have got more than this ship needs.

(Mr. Tennyson.) With regard to Australis, they asked for a figure for sending the ship on aud we told them 10,00107,

793. (Chairman) We are not quite certain about it, but we can give them an approximate figure now ?—I do not know whether it is out of place for me to suggest, but probably it might be wise if the Australian

[Continued.

collection

Government are contemplating making from the parties that they should over-estimate a little Bu as to be on the safe side.

794. The estimate I have in my mind is this figure here plus 5 per cent. for contingencies, and also plus a certain amount for preliminary expenses and dock dues and charges. I think that will make it up to about 12,000/. PO course, there are expenses in delivering the cargo also at Australia, and looking after it there.

795. They are included in this, are they not?-You can never tell how those charges will actually work out, but one thing was in my mind, that the businesslike way probably of attempting to assess the liabilities in this case will be in proportion to the freight, and possibly it would be necessary to warn them that part of the cargo may be turning out in such a condition that they would not get the freight, so that they must have a margin to be quite sure they are protected.

796. I was going to allow for that; I think there may be quite a consideraole proportion of the cargo which the consignees will refuse ?There may be a difficulty in collecting freight and for one reason and another, and the others must pay. That is the principle, I think. I think that is all you want with me, and I will cable at once with regard to that.

The witness withdrew.

Sir HENRY JOHNSON attended.

797. (Chairman.) With regard to the position taken up by Mr. Garrett, it does not seem to me, from our point of view, that he has a leg to stand upon?—I told him so; I told him in the train coming along now, but he cannot make it out. It seems to me that he takes a wrong view altogether. He seems to have got it into his head that we want to play at some "costs of an action," which we are not. That last of the three clauses he accepts. He is now objecting to the costs of the agreement and to the telegrams only, and those are all we have left; everything else we have substantially settled. I should want to go through the agreement with the Committee afterwards, but we have come to a preliminary arrangement except on those two clauses as they were clauses 3 and 4, and, I think, 7.

798. Can you tell us in round figures what the costs of the agreement will be?-I do not know, but they could not exceed 30 guiness. If it were not that someone else is going to pay them, so far as this

Mr. SAMUEL GARRETT attended, representing 802. (Chairman) (To Mr. Garrett.) Apparently the agreement is settled with the exception of two points? -There is only one point, I think.

803. The position of the Government is this: the only thing they are liable for is to put the cargo on the quay and for your clients to come and fetch it. The Government has gone out of its way to assist your clients to the utmost of their power, and we have taken a great deal of trouble to do a thing which has never been done before in the history of the Prize Law, that is to say, we are sending on for the claimants the cargo out of a prize ship. a ship which has been condemned -sending on to its destination the whole of that cargo.

We have waived the undoubted right of the Government to insist on absolute proof of every item of that cargo, and we have done, I think we can fairly claim, a very great deal towards getting the thing fixed up. It has taken some long time, I am sorry to say, but I think your clients are quite as much to blame about that as we are? The papers have had to be collected.

804. It seems to me, if I may say so without dis- respect to you, that you are a little bit unreasonable to insist on this point, particularly when the total amount is so very small compared to the whole thing. The total amount at issue I do not suppose will exceed 801. altogether ?—I did not know that.

Committee and the Government are concerned, I should rather like to say that I should assist them without professional fees, but where they are actually to be paid by someone else, I think there is no reason why one should.

799. The telegrams, I understand, are about 101. P -They must be more than that, surely.

800. (Mr. Tennyson.) It is only 1d. a word, you sec ?--I think you had better tell him that. I do not think we shall have any discussion. I think that he thinks Mr. Tennyson has been indulging himself more

than that.

801. I was surprised at the smallness of the figure. but they assure me that is right ?—I should be quite prepared now to settle the thing with him, and if the expenses come out at less so much the better for him. He has never asked me anything about a figure and 1 have never said anything about a figure, but that is what I tell you.

the owners of cargo on the S.S. "Schneefels.”

805. It is a question of principle?—I would not have troubled you about 801.

(Sir Henry Johnson.) I think from what the Chair- man says you should not trouble them about it.

(Mr. Garrett.) I will not do so if that is all. (Mr. Roper. Is it quite clear that these gentlemen are talking about the same thing!

(Sir Henry Johnson.) Yes, we are talking about sub- clauses 3 and 4 of the agreement.

(Mr. Garrett.) Of clause 7.

(Chairman.) The sum I have mentioned is about what it will come to.

(Sir Henry Johnson.) Call it 100, to make it Mr. Garrett and I have never absolutely certain. discussed any figures; he never asked me what it would amount to and I do not know what I should have said if he had asked me. I thought the telegrams would have been a more serious item than Mr. Tennyson thinks they will be.

(Mr. Garrett.) It is quite casy to spend 1,000l. on cables.

(Mfr. Tennyson.) It would take you some time if you were cabling to Gibraltar.

(Mr. Garrell.) Perhaps the Government get special

rates.

(Chairman.) Yes, they do,

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