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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO

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28 December 1914.]

OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:

Mr. H. GREY KELLOCK.

724. (Chairman.) If Mr. Latta has any proposition to make I think he had better put it in writing and send it to Mr. Wiseman, and then we will consider it, and then I hope by the end of the week or perhaps next week we shall have the decision of the Government as to whether they want these ships employed or whether they do not, and then we can give him an answer?— Yes. Then we have another suggestion made by Elder Dempsters of Liverpool. My partner travelled down with the head man, the managing director. Mr. Jones, only last week, and I think they would be very glad indeed to take some of these vessels.

725. I am sure they would in fact I have seen Mr. Jones Mr. David Jones.

726. Yea, and he told me he would like to have them, but I cannot say yes or no until I know more definitely. We have made certain recommendations to the Government as to how these ships might be Until we have an answer employed, and there we are.

we cannot do anything P-I will tell Mr. Tatta what you say about it and he will probably want to have another interview with Mr. Wiseman and see if he cannot I may tell you that formulate some sort of scheme. you cannot be in better hands than those of Mr. John Latta; he is an extremely clever man. That man has made money with his steamers when other men have not. I consider John Latta one of the cleverest ahip. Then, of course, Elder owners in the kingdom. Dempster, I need not say anything about them; you know all about them. There is just one other thing that the marshal asked me to talk to you about, and that was this: There has been a great deal of enquiry direct to the marshal and through ourselves as to the sale of these vessels that are in Colonial or other ports. The opinion amongst shipowners is that they would do very much better if it were possible to bring them to the beat market.

727. We are bringing every ship that has been taken on the west coast of Africs; they are all coming home P-I understand Elder Dempster are doing that for you.

729. Yes; we have issued a tender to certain firms for the sale of the "Australia," which is out at cho present moment in Colombo; that is to say, we have Baked all the big firms that we think are likely to want the use of that ship if they will make an offer for her. and we are also doing the same thing with regard to theFurth." As to the remainder I should think that they will probably be brought home?--I think that is the proper course to take. It was somewhat proved to me to-day. I was talking to a big ship- owner; I was trying to get him to look at the "Schlesien" and when I left it was promised that I

[Continued.

would send him an inspection order. He said, "What are you doing with these ships?" I said, "I am only the marshal's broker, do not bully me." He said, " Thenn ships ought to be brought home." I said, "Thanks very much, but I cannot say anything about it." He said "It would pay me to send a man out to these different ports and pay all his expenses. I believe I "would get them very much cheaper on the spot than

if they came to this country."

**

**

729. (Mr. Tennyson.) Have you put any limit of size? Of course, you do put some, but what limit of size have you what minimum size--for vessels to b brought home?—They are all selling so well now.

739. (Chairman.) Yes, but we have one ship out at Hong Kong at the present moment of about 1,000 tons? -I do not think she would pay.

781. We will look at the list and perhaps you can say what you think about it ?-The trouble with these Colonial ports is that there is no market there.

732. That is exactly what we feel?-Quite so. (The witness pointed out the vessels on the list which ha thought it would pay to bring home.) What about these Woermann boats!

793. Those are all coming home? There is a tremendous clamour for them; they will well well.

734. They will all be home in the course of the next few months ?-You can see the way the wind One blows by the advice which shipowners give. man said "put them all up in a lot."

735. (Mr. Tennyson) I believe they tried to sell the That is "Adolph" at Gibraltar locally and could not.

certain amount of only 950 tons ?--At Gibraltar there is no market.

736. (Chairman.) There is a Spanish coasting trade?-Of all places in the globe Gibraltar is the place I would have brought her away from first. Then the marshal asked me if I got the chance to speak to you about a vessel which has arrived at Plymouth from Jamaica called the "Spreewald." He said "perhaps you might get some idea what is going to happen to that boat. As you are going

· down about the Schlesien you might have a look "at the Spreewald.'"

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737. (Mr. Roper.) Has she arrived at Plymouth ?-- Yes.

(Mr. Tennyson.) She arrived yesterday, I believe. (Chairman.) She is 3,800 tons,

(Witness.) He did not give me her size.

(Chairman.) I think it would be a good thing for you to look at her.

(Mr. Erans.) I understand the "Belgia" is going to be requisitioned for the Transport Department?-- She is a splendid ship; she will carry horses or anything.

The witness withdrew.

Adjourned.

Monday, 4th January 1915.

Evidence taken at the Thirteenth Meeting.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

VICE-ADMIRAL SIR EDMOND J. W. SLADE, K.C.I.E., K.C.V.O. (in the Chair).

Mr. G. L. BARSTOW, C.B.

Mr. W. J. EVANS.

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

Mr. H. W. MALKIN.

Mr. G. KorEK. Mr. C. TENNYSON, C.M.G. Mr. L. D. WAKELY.

Mr. JOSEPH LOWREY attended.

733. (Chairman). You have got the revised esti mate, have you not ?—Yes.

738A. Do you think it is now on a workable basis! --I think it is getting very near a workable basis.

739. What alterations would you be inclined to

Mr. R. A. WISEMAN (Secretary),

suggest. --I notice you put down the crew at 40. I still feel that 35 ought to be enough.

740. Mr. Hughes was vary insistent on it; he thought 40 was the least we could go for P--I have made some inquiries on that point, and as to similar

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. J. LowREY.

4 January 1915.]

steamers trading in the ordinary way, and I think in no case have I come across a vessel of this size which has got quite so many as that on board.

741. He quoted all his own ships and they have quite that number ?--I have communicated with one or two other shipowners, and it works out to 35 or 36 as a rule, and one of our own men who has commanded vessels of this type for an ownership which is not very liberal in the matter of the provision of the crew, pute the figure substantially lower than that, even. (letting it on to the basis, as you can do now, of paying the actual expenses, I should think that is a matter you could leave. I mean so long as you are only called upon to pay for the money actually spent it is not necessary for you absolutely to decide what the number might be.

742. The only thing is to get a figure to telegraph forward ?--I should telegraph on the assumption that perhaps there will be 40 on board.

743 Do you think we shall be safe in taking this figure which he puts down -It is a littlo difficult to know; you cannot know until you have actually engaged your crew what wages you are to pay in South Africa. You will pay a little more than the ruling rate of wages there, or you will give something equivalent to a bonus, because you want to get rid of the men without bringing them back. Leaving the question of wages, while it is in my mind, I see that you have eliminated the protection and indemnity

insurance.

744 Yes, I had no intention of eliminating the Crown's liability on any of those points; it was made indefinite. You see, the Government is taking the risk of a great deal of it -Yes, but the Government is not taking all the risk; for instance, one considerable part of the protection and indemnity risk is the liability of the owner of a steamer in respect of claims for damage to, or loss of, cargo. That is eliminated here.

745. That is eliminated?-But then, supposing this steamer comes into collision with another vessel and sinks her with loss of life, the protection liability inclades the loss of life and the ordinary policy eliminates it.

746, How can we deal with that I think it could be dealt with by including the risk in your ordinary marine policy; that is, you can ask your ordinary underwriters to insure the steamer to cover protection and indemnity risks. so far as they exist, and that would ring in such a question as loss of life. The loss of life might be a serious thing. Then another kind of risk which is covered by protection and indemnity insurance is the damage to fixed objecta. This ship, for instance, runs into a valuable pier or jetty and does a lot of mischief in that way. That is eliminated by the ordinary policy.

747. This, I think, we ought to put in ?—I think you would be running a risk which there is no saving in the premium to justify.

it,

748. I quite agree? And I think you can get it into the marine policy without paying very much for Another point, on that question of insurance, struck me that you want to have average payable irrespective of percentage. I suppose it is necessary for you to have that.

749. I am afraid I do not quite understand the whole bearing of the point ?-If you have a policy in the ordinary form, and the steamer sustains some small damage, a few hundred pounds, that is not recoverable ander the policy, so that if you do not cover it under the policy someone is running that risk.

750. (Mr. Holl.) It is a franchise of 3 per cent. ?— Yes, with certain exceptions; that is, if the ship strands that opens the policy, average is payable irrespective of percentage, but you would no. recover heavy weather damage unless it represented 3 per cent. on either hull or machinery.

(Chairman.) So that ought to be recovered.

751. (Mr. Holt.) If we pressed the marine people they would include it ?--It is included in this estimate, but it is the kind of thing one does not always look to have included in a marine policy, and it might affect your premium, After seeing you before, I made an

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[Continurd.

inquiry on the question of insurance and I got the impression that the insurance figures should be capable of very considerable reduction. As a matter of fact, I got from a leading underwriter at Lloyd's a quotation to cover the steamer including war risk which you can now eliminate, and including protection and indemnity risks, but without including these small claims at 30s. per cent.; but I do not know that his lead would be good enough to get the whole insurance placed at that, but if he quoted 30s. for that, obviously he could quote if you eliminated the war something less.

752. (Chairman.) 25s. ?--I should have thought 25. but whether he would put in the average irrespective

risk

of percentage, I do not know. That would make a substantial difference even on the remaining small amount insured. That is the kind of thing one could follow up, but for the purpose of the estimate it would probably be wise to over-estimate rather than under- estimate.

753. Are there any other points ?-There was the question of the value of the steamer. I see Mr. Richards now takes that at 61,000. I got an independent valuation of the ship at 60,0007., so that you may take that as being approximately correct, I think.

754. (Mr. Evans.) You see, the ship has been appraised at considerably less. 53,9681, by the court?

I think that is putting it too low.

(Chairman.) That is all the amount which would have to be paid into court.

(Mr. Evans.) And 8101. stores, or 34,8001. for the ship and stores.

755. (Chairman.) Say 55,000). What is the custom with regard to ships' stores insurance ?-The stores are supposed to be part of the ship and covered under the ship policy.

756. So you would include the valuation of the stores ---Yes, you must include the valuation.

757. That is, the ship and her furniture P-The ship and her furniture and her consumable stores. They are ordinarily covered under the policy without being separated.

all.

758. Is there anything else P-No, I think that was 759. Summing up your criticisms, if we take 9,5001, as an estimated cost of moving the ship, that would be a fair amount P-I think that is as fair so you can make it, as an estimate, of course. You appreciate that while on the one side one would hope to obtain reductions in some of these items, on the other hand there might be unexpected increase of expenses by reason of delay or difficulty of obtaining a crew or something of that kind.

760. (Mr. Holt.) But there is 4501. for Mr. Hughes -5 per cent. ?--I was thinking of the figures only.

761. (Chairman.) I was not taking in those outside figures that will come in afterwards ?--And in addition, I think, there is no provision in these figures for the very wise suggestion to attempt to clean the ship's bottom to some extent. I think that would be a very wise precaution.

762. I think we shall have to do that?--You ought to get the benefit of that in the coal consumption, of

course.

703. Could you take over this business now from us on this basis and look after our interests via d via the Federal Company?—Yes.

764. And act for us in finishing up this business?— Yes, I think we could, so long as I am told what you want me to do.

765. We would like it if you would act for us as our agent in doing this business right through, that is to say, take these figures as the basis and work it all out with Mr. Hughes on the actual cost P-Yes, reducing the expenses as far as they prudently can be reduced."

766. I suppose your people in Cape Town would get the crew for us I think they ought to be able to do that. I gave you, in a letter to Mr. Wiseman, a copy of the cable received from them, and as soon as it could be known about when the ship in ready to leave they could be cabled and told to get the crew together, or to co-operate with the agents of Mr. Hughes in doing so. There is just one point, sir, which indirectly

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