CO885-24 — Page 327

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

C.O. 885

24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO

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30 November 1914.]

OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:

Mr. H. MAITLAND KERREY.

much as possible, and we want to know exactly what you want -Well. I could tell better if you could tell me what ships you have got in Hong Kong. The sort of ship we want is en of the German Lloyd eastern bats. That is the type. There are three of them in Alexandria, I think.

180. Here is a list (handing a list to the Witness)? -The "Deriflinger" is about the class of boat we want. She is on page 4, under Egypt. That is the sort of boat which would suit us best. I do not think there is anything in Hong Kong big enough for our trade, to carry the coal.

Our new and the

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181. The Tannenfels " ?. She is 5,000. ships are 18.000, the Empress of Russia

Empress of Asia."

182. I thought you wanted them for your local traile? No, we want them for the Pacific.

183. There is absolutely nothing which would suit you for that? We want them between Vancouver and Japan and Vladivostock. I have a cable which says we want vessels for the heavy shipments now offering from the United States and Canada for Vladivostock. That is from the Vice-President of the Company in Montreal. It is a long steaming distance. It is 3,100 miles from Nagasaki to Vancouver. That means a pretty good bunker capacity and dead weight carrying."

184: Of course, if you have not a very big ship it is very difficult to make that sort of business pay ?—Yes. Looking down this list I should not think there is anything in Hong Kong which would be any good to us. They are not big enough, unless the " Tannenfels " is. The Derflinger" is the class of boat we want. TheLutzow" is another. I know both of them. They are both in Egypt.

185. There is the " Australia" in Ceylon?—I should think she would do, I do not know her without looking her up. but I should think she would do pretty well. We should have to send out crews from here, I suppose.

186. You think there is nothing else which would Huit you?-1 do not think there is anything in China which would be of any good to us.

187. Anywhere els? There were three I had in my mind: the Deringer." the "Lutzow," and the "Melbourne" might do. She is about 6,000 tons.

188. (Mr. Tennyson.) I am afraid those Australian ones are being used for some other purpose-Then there was a boat which came home called the " Alesia." She came from Indin. I do not know what became of her. It was offered her the other day by a shipping empany here. She is a Hamburg-Amerika liner.

189. (Chairman.) She is only 5,000?—Yes. We know the Deriflinger type. She is built for the long voyages and to carry passengers. We have a good many passengers there. I do not know whether they will travel now, but under ordinary conditions we have a good many. Iu perce time we carry 290 to 250 firsts aal 100 Asiatic seconds, and anything up to 1,000 Chinamen, and very large tea and silk cargoes.

196 Have you made up your mind at all as to the terms which you would like to take these ships on?—I have not the least idea what your ideas are, whether it is so much a ton dead weight or so much a gross tou

191. I think the best way is much a ton dend weight if the ship has a decent carrying capacity. If you take up the Derfflinger" and "Lutzow" on dead weight you do not get much in it ?-They would come in letter at so much a gross ton a month?

I have 192. Yes? It is very difficult to know. ma len offer for a boat called the Clan Mackeller." but she is a cargo boat. She is 8,609 dead weight.

193. None of these ships, neither the "Derfflinger " nor the "Lutzow." would be anything like that dead How about the weight P-No, they would not. insurance, the marine risk and the war risk? We have to carry our own marine risk and our own war risk. All our Pacific fleet has been taken by the Government, but on the Atlantic we are paying marine and war risk.

194. That would have to be included in the charter, either one side or the other?--I do not know whether the Admiralty would think it necessary to

establish any war risk on a German ship.

[Continued.

That makes

a great difference. The premiums are two guineas per cent. for 9 lays.

195. The risk must be carried somewhere; whether the Admiralty or the Government will carry it them selves and not pay any premium, or whether they will y the premium and put the risk on the fund 1 do not know at the present moment?-They would have to get at the valuation of the ship to do that.

196. You must get the valuation of the ship obviously. These are condemned ships, at least they are prize ships and probably will be condemned in the end. If you wuufu wish to take them out of the Prize Court and use them before they are condemned you see the Government would have to guarantee that this value of these ships remains in the Court ?--Then they would have to insure themselves.

197. You would have to give an indemnity to the Government if you hired them from the Government, or the Government takes them out on your behalf. It would necessarily entail an indemnity from you to cover the Government in case of loss ?—I should think that would be a very complicated operation.

198. (Mr. Evans.) When yourhire a ship from another person to take the place of one of your own line do you insure that ship? --No, the owners do th› whole thing. The Clan Mackeller" is a cargo boat. I offered them so much per gross ton dead weight. We pay coal, port charges and towage, and so on, but they provide for the whole of the risk. They are responsible for murine and war risk, and they agreed to deliver in Hong Kong and take re-delivery in Hong Kong, which obviates our going to great expense on sending ships out from here.

199, (Chairman.) In this case you see the situation is quite different. Here are these ships in various ports, and if you want to have them you would have to take We them over and run them -I understand that. have to provide the crews and everything else, but of course you would have to get at the valuation of the "Dertlinger "--if we were offered the "Dertlinger and the Lutzow "we would have to take out crews and we would have to get the valuation for insuranc»» and war risk purposes.

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200. But there is a certain minimum charge, other- wise you arrive at nothing at all? Yes, you might. I do not know without turning them up. I should not think these ships are very old.

201. No, neither of them, but I think you would have to have the appraised value of the ship as she lies Is not there and it would be appraised by the Court. that the value you would have to take beanse that is the value which would have to be made good in case of loss?Yes, it would be a very difficult thing. I should think that would be fair provided they were up to Lloyd's survey.

202. Oh, yes?--And provided of course that we are not under any Board of Trade requirements as to boilers and engines. As a rule the Board of Trade would not accept German lilers for British registry and so forth. We should have to be released from that.

203. Not with a class of vessel like that --I am which I tried to talking of a boat villed the Berlin

buy from the North German Lloyd's, and the Board of Trade did not want to pass her boilers. They were not quite up to some requirements of the Board of Trade. The Board of Trade inspectors would have to be instructed at Hong Kong that during the war these ships should if necessary be considered as jussed for survey.

204. If you are going to buy the ships or take the ships and run them for British trade I suppose the the Board of Trude would insist-

(Mr. Roper. The Board of Trade have no powers in Hong Kong. It would be the Colonial Government. They would have surveyors similar to ours here. Of course they would have to be registered as British ships.

(Mr. Evans.) Would the Board of Trade Regulations necessarily apply P

(Mr. Roper) Oh, yes.

30 November 1914.]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE..

Mr. H. Maitland KerSEY.

(Chairman.) You have to have a transfer of flag, that is to say, the ship has to be surveyed and registered asu British ship.

(Mr. Ruper.) Yes.

(Chairman.) And then it comes under the Board of Trade survey.

(Mr. Roper.) Yes. I mean we have not our own offices out there, but they have theirs and no doubt they will follow the same rules we have here.

(Wituras.) I should think that, certainly for war purposes, the Board of Trade ought to forgo all those requirements because, after all, the Derflinger" and the "Lutzow" trade from British ports in peace time, and they are quite good enough. The German Lloyd's has many requirements much more severe than our Lloyd's or our Board of Trade. I think the Board of Trade ought, at all events during war time, to pass these vessels as they ar

205. (Chairman.) I should think that might possibly b› arranged ?—And that ought to be gauranteed.

206, Will you take this list and let us know exactly what you think you would like to hire out of this list ? --Yex.

997. And make us an offer at so much a ton?—I should have to know the valuation. It is very largely a question of war insurance, because if those brats were valued at 190,0002, at eight guineas per cent. per annum, it would be a very different thing from if they were valued say at 40,00Ě, to us. I mean, in establishing the basis of charter. I do not quite gas how we are to do that until you say what a given ship is worth.

208. At the present moment we have not had them valued, but I should think probably about 75,000l. to 80002. I do not know what the age is.

209. There are a good many things to be thought of even when we know very roughly what you are willing These ships to give or what you are willing to offer. probably have already got cargo on board? --- În Egypt.

210. Yes?-East boun1 or wet bicindl.

211. I cannot tell you ?-That would make a difference.

(Chairman.) The Laitzow" is east bound.

(Mr. Malkin The Derlinger is coming west I an almost certain.

(With ws.) With regard to the Lantzow" that would make no difference, beanse we could deliver that in China-I mean we would deliver it at a charge to you, as you give us some credit for taking that out from Egypt to China.

212. (Chairavin.) Yes, it would be a charge against the cargo? Yes.

213. Then, of course, there is the cargo to he insured. All those charges have got to be met?—I do not know how one could get at that unless the have the bills of lading on board to tell the approximate valuation,

214. We should have to get hold of that. The operation is not quite so simple as it looks.

You say that the Tauenfels" will not suit you?--I would not say that right off.

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213. She is 5,000 tons ?- Our "Empress of India" and the Empress of Japan' arv much too sanall for us, and they are 6400. There are all those Woermann's in the Kamerun,

216. They are no good to you. They have a few passengers. but they are mainly cargo hats? Then there is providing crews to bring them back.

217. There is the Feldmarschall' and the Tabora "-She is in German East Africa. There is the Taboru," I should think she is a very good ship. 218. She has been re-captured by the German. not the situation this; that if you want to take up ships these you will pay the Government a certain sum jer ton per month? -Yes.

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219. That will be based upon your running the ship entirely, and upon the delivery of the cargo ?- What are we to du with the west-bound eargo? Bring the ship home and discharge her? If so, we should harve to do all that for Admiralty account, because that would not interest us.

22. It is a great expense to tranship?--We have supplied all the officers, engineers and crews for the

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[Continued.

Woermann luate. The Admiralty pay them certain wages and we pay the difference to make up their regular wages.

(Chairman.) In the case of the "Derfflinger" we cannot leave the cargo stranded out there, and it is no good if you take it to China. She is supposed to be full up with cargo, but we have not any information

about that.

221. (Mr. Malkin.) It was not the "Dorflinger's " cargo that was burnt, was it?—I could find out by cabling to Egypt.

(Chairman.) I think we had better find out exactly what this slip's cargo is and where it is going to.

(Mr. Malkin.) We have not had any application about the "Derflinger" to send it on, have we?

(Chairman.) Not that I know of.

(Mr. Malkin.) Unless the cargo is perishable I suppose we are entitled to discharge at Alexandria and let the owners have it there if we want the ship taken uway empty.

(Chairman.) I should think so.

(Mr. Malkin.) A good many kinds of cargo we could discharge at Alexandria. Then you have to pay warehouse duos. That would fall on the cargo owners I should think. There are the Melbourne," "Sumatar" and Australia." What are we to do with them; are they available.

(Mr. Tennyson) They are stated to have been ordered to be taken on by the Admiralty on the 6th October.

(Chairman, I think they have been taken up. (Witness.) And the Australia," how about that? 222. (Chairman.) I think she is empty?—The Australia." the Dertlinger" and the “Lutzow," 1 think, would be the only three that would interest us ut all.

223. (Mr. Extens.) Will you look through the list and see if there is any other which would suit you - I have looked through the list and I do not think there is anything g enough. What we want is something which will carry these big cargoes to Russia (Vladi- vostock), large quantites of flour and outs and so on.

24. I should think those Woermann boats would du for that, if you are bringing them home to Liverpool!

-They might do,

225. Of course they will not be available for some few weeks -It would be a very small sum we would pay: I mean 28, or 3s, per ton dead weight; not more. We are hiring bouts now for tis., 6a. 3. up to 6s. 97. and 78, and that sort of price, for dead weight to replace all the ships the Admiralty have taken of ours on this side, and then the owners provide everything except coal and port charges and stevedoring.

226. Is that 28. per ton per month 2-2. per ton per month dead weight carrying capacity. We should have to provide all the crews and the officers and all the insurance and everything else.

227. Our only object is to get a fair profit out of the use of these things. We do not want to drive too hard a bargain, Int at the same time we do not want to let things go by default, and say. This is a present for you"--Of course the great trouble is the war risk. If the Admiralty would say they would take the war risk it would be better. They take 80 per cent, any. way, because if we hired these ships and they became our temporary property, we should put them into the War Risk Association in Liverpul, and the Govern ment take 80 per cent. of that. They might as well take the 20 per cent, as well and have done with it, and then they would get a greater rate of hire. Eight guineas per cent. per annum is a fearful hole in your outlay if the ship is of any value. Supposing th

Derflinger was worth 200,000, for instance—I do not know how old she is-but eight guineas per cent. on that is a considerable item.

228, (Mr. Barstow.) It comes to this that the more you have to pay for war risk insurance the less you can afford to pay per gross ton?--If I were the Government I should take the whole risk. marine insurance and war risk. It stands to reason we are not going to take any possible risks which we can avoid, for our own sake. I do not think the Govern. ment run any risk.

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