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have found that the existence of the legal obstacle which Mr. Seddon has mentioned, has obliged us also to proceed by way of individual agreements on the part of the men; but I think I may say this, with some assurance, that in this case also, independently of this question of Military or Naval Reserves, and as a matter applying to the whole military systems of the various States of the Commonwealth which are now amalgamated into one, there is not in my opinion the slightest probability of any holding back on the part of the men in future from offering service, or any reason to fear a falling off in the spontaneous offers for that service arising out of any absence of conditions that they may volunteer for outside service. I think a fear of that kind might be dismissed as not raising a real difficulty.

We, sir, I think, are in agreement with Mr. Seddon in another matter. The state of public sentiment and feeling in the Australian Colonies and in New Zealand is as strong as it well can be in favour of providing at any moment of emergency all possible assistance to the defence of the Empire, and in propor- tion as the integrity of the Empire is threatened in any part of the Empire, will be the meed of assistance that Australia and New Zealand will offer, no matter whether they themselves are the point of attack or not. That, I think, may be taken as an assurance which will work out to this extent, that though those countries will not be able to reduce any terms of assistance by way of land force to a specific agreement, there will be a response to any suggestion made to us, or a response to the known requirements of the Empire with or without any suggestion which will be fully equivalent to the extent of our means whether it is in men or money. I may be sorry that we cannot at this time formulate that matter, but I do say this again, speaking with some confidence, that the response in any emergency will be, in my belief, greater, freer, more enthusiastic, if matters are left to spontaneous action, than it will be if you endeavour to bind us down by any formal resolutions or by other measures. It may be that those who are accustomed to see these matters regulated in quite a different way will be somewhat surprised to find this state. of feeling and opinion. To us, however, it is natural and normal, because we think what does attach us to the Mother Country, is the link of relationship and affection, and the affection wells up with overflowing strength whenever any question of the defence of the Empire, whether at our own doors or anywhere else, arises, and I should really advise with Mr. Seddon, that matters military should be left as they are now, at any rate until some change in public opinion arises, and I cannot say that I expect any early change in that respect.

Before I sit down I should like to say that public meu fully realise in Australia that an attempt at the close localisation of local forces is not to the general interest. I know there are many among us who would fight very hard to have any auxiliary squadron as it has been called in the past, tied to Australian waters, but I think that as thought goes on in this matter, it will be realised that the most effective blows struck in defence may be struck at a distance, and while they appear to bo aggressive, may be in reality the best means of successful defence. One need not hesitate an expression of that opinion, when it is the opinion of all the experts of all nations I think, and is, moreover, an opinion verified amply in British history. I am not prepared to go in any great detail into the general question at this moment, but I have thought it advisable that before we attempt to come to any set resolutions, we should ail of us rather follow the example of others in impressing upon you what are our difficulties, and so enable the Conference perhaps to arrive more easily at an understanding in this matter. That will no doubt, as far as we are concerned, be marked by an attempt to assist to the extent of our pos- sibilities the Imperial defence, but I have been obliged to make it quite clear how limited these possibilities are at the present stage although they may be in a few years more ample.

Sir GORDON SPRIGG: Mr. Chamberlain, I have to point out that the Cape Colony stands in a very different position in regard to its population to that of the Colonies whose representatives here to-day have spoken. The population of Cape Colony is 2,355,000. Of these the white population is only 517,000. Those are the figures ascertained as late as last year. We had not had a census taken for 10 years, but I had a calculation made on the well-known principle of growth of population, and that brings out the figures which I have just named. Now to the 517,000 I add 83,000 as

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representing what I may call the coloured population, as distinguished from the aboriginal natives, the people of mixed blood-brown we call it—or half- castes and Malays; that would give a population of 600,000, on which culcu- lation our expenditure ought to be based, because the vast native population of aboriginal natives amounting to 1,750,000 are really a source of danger to us. It is on that account that we are obliged to keep up the large military force which is permanently maintained in the Capo Colony. At time we may be landed in a native war in the future as we have been in the past. A large number of these people are in a state of Barbarism or just emerging from barbarism. Some have advanced a little way in civilisation, and others higher, but they should be written off altogether as regards any calculation of the cost per head for the maintenance of our military force. The expendi- ture upon military forces in the Colony as it will appear upon the estimates which are now being framed for the present financial year amounts to 420,000l. a year, and 30,000 a year as the contribution for the navy, that is 450,0007. a year altogether. Now, if it be asked, What is the exponditure por hend

of the population, as I have defined it, you will find it works out at 15s. per head of the white and coloured population as distinguished from the barbarian population, which cannot be reckoned in the calculation.

Well,

I think it must be acknowledged that that is a very large contribution indeed to make, and I must say at once that I am not prepared to add anything to that very large expenditure, simply because the Colony is not in a position to afford it. The only exception that I would make with regard to that is this, that if some scheme were formulated, and there was a disposition on the part of the representatives of the other Colonies to have something definite, I would be prepared, on behalf of the Cape Colony, to increase somewhat the contribution of 30,000. a year which we make at present towards the expenses of the Navy. Reference has been made to that contribution by Mr. Seddon. What occurred was this. When was here five years ago I proposed, on behalf of the Cape Colony, to give a battleship. Well, when we came to discuss that afterwards, before our Parliament met and after it had mel, it was thought that, on the whole, it would be better to give a contribution amounting to the annual interest of the price of a battleship, rather than give the ship itself. That was formally decided npon, and, as a matter of fact, the 30,0007. incant a larger contribution from the Colonial funds than would have been the case if we had actually ordered and built it ourselves. Such a ship as we gave would not have cost a inillion of money. We should have had to raise a loan in order to build the ship, but the expense altogether would not have amounted to quite 30,000l. a year; but we made it 30,000, and that we are prepared to continue to pay.

Mr. SEDDON: That fortifies my statement of the facts.

Sir GORDON SPRIGG: Yes.

Mr. SEDDON: That is exactly what I stated.

Sir GORDON SPRIGG: Yes, just so, I only want to state how it arose, and, as I have said, if some definite agreement can be arrived at, I would, on behalf of the Cape Colony, be prepared to agree to some addition to the 30,0001. a year.

I must say that the Colony is not in a position, considering the character of its population, to pledge itself unreservedly to send a contigent in the event of a war in any other part of the Empire. I think it would not be a right and a safe thing for the Colony to pledge itself to do so, but I entirely agree with the view that has been put before the Conference by Sir Edmund Barton that the sentiment of union exists, and if a war should unhappily occur in any other part of the Empire and the Imperial Government needed help from its Colonies, I am quite sure the Cape Colony would be one of the first to render that help, provided they were not in any dangerous position themselves. It might happen that there was an outbreak in some part of the world which required a very large Imperial force to face it, but it might happen at the same time that we had some outbreak in our own Native

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