CO885-(7-8) — Page 592

120

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

PLEN C.O. 885

سلنا

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT-TO

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

30

to

points dissimilar to all the others. Some have been high tariff States; some have been low tariff States. A tariff necessarily must strike some line between extremes in each direction, so that those interests may not be destroyed, which under any different attempt at adjusting the question would have to go down. It results that some of the States will have money, and one of them a vast quantity of money beyond what their previous tariffs have yielded, to them, while others are receiving considerably lets; but unfortunately for the Commonwealth-I will not, say unfortunately, for that was the scheme by which we were enabled in large measure to achieve federation-the money which goes back to those States it is open them to spend for their own purposes: and it results that one State will be receiving probably over 1,000,000/. more than it has been in the habit of receiving before the Federation, while others will be receiving less—one other will be receiving as much as 300,000l. to 400,0001. a year less. Now that system necessarily imposes upon the Commonwealth the obligation of making such returns as will not in any way embarrass the financial position of

any component state, and therefore returns have to be made to the states under a tariff which might perhaps be lower if different conditions prevailed, but returns have to be made to the states for the objects which I have endeavoured to outline, and these returns are not available for any objects of defence.

Now the second limitation which is imposed upon the Commonwealth is this, that for at least ten years after its institution it cannot spend for the purposes of Government of the Commonwealth more than 20 per cent. of the net Customs and Excise Revenues received. That is a clause familiarly known as the Braddon Clause, proposed by my friend Sir Edward Braddon. This again imposes a serious limitation, because, taken in connection with the sections which I have outlined, it increases, it may be for a good public object as far as internal Government is concerned, the limitations upon the expenditure of the Colony. We have not yet reached, within the Com- monwealth, the limit of one-fourth, but we have before us problems, such as those which have demanded solution in the early progress of the Canadian Dominion, such, as for instance, trans-continental railways. It is demanded of us to build shortly a railway which would cover a space of 1,100 miles, within the States of Southern and Western Australia, and we shall then form a continuous chain of communication by rail from points far north of Brisbane in Queensland to the City of Perth. It will be also demanded of us very soon to take over what is called the Northern Territory of South Australia. I think the Government of that portion of the country has a history which is familiar to many at this table, and there is no doubt that if that is taken over there will be another serious burden, and then we shall probably have to begin the construction of another trans-continental railway. At the risk of being tedious I have to mention these things in order to make clear to all of us, who are endeavouring to operate with a common object. how difficult it is for some of us to rise to the level which is expected of us at this stage.

With regard to the first problem of Naval Defence I must say that it has struck me that the only reasonable solution, as far as those whom I represent are concerned at the present time, is not at present to attempt the construction or rather the obtaining of the nucleus of a Navy of our own, because however strong the public feeling may be in that direction, and there are some indications of support of such a proposal, I should find a very great difficulty in finding the money for the purpose, and the less difficult of the two in that regard is a proposal similar to that which the noble lord who opened the discussion to-day has set before us. But at the outset I am again obliged to say that the financial limitations that I have spoken of would render it impossible for us to go quito so far. That is a subject to which I shall give the utmost further consideration, because I should like to fall in, as far as is reasonably possible, with the proposals which have been made, of course subject to the approval of Parliament, which must supervise in any case. But I find

I cannot go any further than say this to-day, that I think my colleague will agree with me, I mean Sir John Forrest, that the increase of naval con- tribution, embodying, as it would, I suppose, the three requirements mentioned by Mr. Seddon, and specially the withdrawal of obsolete or worn-

31

out ships, and the replacing them, during the whole currency of the agree ment, with modern cruisers, and adding torpedo catchers or destroyers as required, I take it that a proposal of that kind, offers not only more advan- tago, but is a much nearer approach to a feasible solution than any proposal for us at the other end of the world to ask you at present to supply us with a Navy of our own. That is a matter entirely for future consideration. As to the carlier part of Mr. Seddon's proposal, I take it--and I shall be corrected if I am wrong that he refers to a system, so far as sea service is concerned. similar to what is proposed in the detailed proposals by the maintenance of "five Katoombas," and I am strongly of the belief that, so far as means will allow us to do, we should endeavour to maintain men who would be fit to act as reservists, fit to act on sea service in times of emergency, and that we should ask the Imperial Government for such terms as we can arrange, if on the ships of the regular squadrons provision of that kind cannot⚫ be made, to enable us and New Zealand to deal with the subject in something similar to the way proposed, by regular training on board vessels such as are mentioned in these proposals, which may not any longer be likely to be used for warships, but would nevertheless provide efficient training ships. So far for the proposals which my friend Mr. Seddon has made, and to the extent which I have mentioned, I should be in favour of them. I do not think, however, it is necessary to include in those proposals, if I may say so, a stipulation for service in emergency outside the Dominion or Colony, and I would say why I think a proposal of that kind in times of peace would not add to the probable carriage or success of measures to carry out these propositions. In Australia the notion of insisting on service outside does not happen at the time to be popular. That we found out in a discussion in Parliament of our military defence proposals; but as Mr. Seddon has also pointed out with, I think, admirablo correctness, when emergencies do arise there is no objection—there has been, at any rate hitherto, no objection raised-to service outside the Colonies. There has been superabundant spontaneous offer; the action of Governments in permitting such, agreements as have been signed by men volunteering to serve has not been seriously questioned, except by a very in- considerable minority. From my own experience I should therefore say, that in Australia and in New Zealand too it would be a matter of course without any such stipulation that any force raised for the other purposes indicated in Mr. Seddon's resolutions, would easily be available in time of emergency. The embodiment of these stipulations would, I think, diminish the chance of success in carrying such proposals. Our people are like their countrymen here. They will do much in time of warlike. emergency which in time of peace they would decline to bind themselves beforehand to accomplish.

Mr. SEDDON: I beg your pardon. Sir Edmund Barton. Why they included those words in the resolutions was as to whether the Imperial authorities would prefer that there should be such a stipulation.

Sir EDMUND BARTON: Yes, in order that that might be discussed. Mr. SEDDON: And not the Colonial.

Sir EDMUND BARTON: Quite so; but of course from this point of view that in order to make any proposals of this kind am looking at it effective there must be concurrence on the part of the Colonies concerned, and I am looking now to the readiest way of obtaining such concurrence on that point: therefore I would suggest that so far as any action of the Colonies is concerned there should be no exaction of service in the case of emergency outside the Dominion or Colony, which, I take it. Mr. Seddon proposes, that the words to be understood before the phrase are "not only within but" outside. I have to add to what Mr. Seddon has said about the conditions under which contingents were raised in New Zealand, a statement that we met with a similar difficulty in Australia, as existing Defence Acts of the separate States embodied in only one case provision for service outside the States concerned; and I have already said what I think will probably be the fate of an attempt to require service outside the Dominion with which I am concerned; but, in raising our contingents, we D 4