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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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to this island or to that island; there is the labour traffic, you have got to deal with that, and these smaller ships, with their sail power, are particularly adapted for this service, and have been chosen to be able to cruise conveniently in the islands.

Mr. Seddon.] The only other question I wish to call the attention of the Admiralty to is the keeping under the agreement of two of these vessels; you have allowed us two first-class cruisers which were not commissioned; they were left out of commission in Sydney; that is their station, and we have no reserve in the Colonies upon which we can draw. If emergency arose the time it would take to commission them would be such that with the close proximity we have both east and west to these powerful navies of the nations there, that we should be at their mercy. I would ask that the Admiralty would consider as to an alteration in respect to commissioning those vessels, and as to how, in case of necessity or emergency, those ships could be found with a complete service in good time-how they would be commissioned. That is a matter of some moment. As I say they are relying upon obtaining the men, which is all right; we have plenty of sailors and men on board these steamers, as far as number is concerned, but every one on board these cruisers must be specially efficient, and I assert that within a reasonable time we could not commission them.

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Admiral Sir Frederick Richards.] In the case of war being imminent the old gun boats that you speak of as being no good for fighting, would probably turn their crews over to the modern ships in reserve.

Mr. Goschen.] Police ships.

Admiral Sir Frederick Richards.] And surveying vessels.

Sir Hugh Nelson.] There was a suggestion made that wo should have on the spot a reserve of men that would always be ready for the Navy in case they were wanted.

Mr. Kingston.] I would like to say that it is a recommendation by our local naval authorities that, instead of a money contribution, the Australasian Colonies should furnish an equivalent in trained seamen for the Royal Reserve, for service in Australasian waters and contiguous seas. The reasons for this recommendation are contained in the report by Captain Cresswell which I handed in at the last meeting, and which is now in print. I do not know if Mr. Goschen has seen or considered it.

Mr. Goschen.] Yes.

Mr. Kingston.] But it would be a great advantage to me, if such is the case, if I might be furnished with any remarks in regard to it.

Mr. Goschen.] I could say a word or two upon it, and that is, that the training of seamen now is a totally different thing from what the training used to be. To train for the men-of-war without the proper gunnery establish- ments, without the torpedo establishments, without all the engineering appliances where they are to learn the use of the new guns and the new machinery, are operations much more difficult than the public generally think, as to the ability to train in any particular spot. In the old days it would of course have been much easier-we could have had a Naval Reserve; men drilled and disciplined, which is already something.

Mr. Kingston.] You notice that Captain Creswell's recommendation con- tained a suggestion that a considerable portion of this fund should be expended-between 50,000l. and 60,000l. annually on a gunnery school, training establishment, payment of training staff, and material. Would that to some extent meet your objections?

Mr. Goschen.] I did not notice that particularly. Well, it would be difficult to organise anything of the kind, and I daresay it would only be in one Colony that you could have it established.

Mr. Kingston.] It would be available for all

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Mr. Goschen.] It might be available for all, but I think we should have to man it with a number of gunnery officers from our other establishments. I think it would be difficult. I would say that any suggestion for increasing the ties between the Colonies and ourselves in the way of naval defence would gladly consider, but I cannot hold out much hope that we shall be able to adopt this particular plan.

Mr. Kingston.] It would, of course, give the Australians an increased interest in the fleet if there was a local reserve of about 5,000 men.

Mr. Goschen.] As I say, I will look further into that. I have not examined that point so carefully as some of the others.

The Secretary of State.] Then as regards Canada I think that it raises questions so very different from those of the Australasian Colonies and questions which perhaps it would be undesirable to discuss in public. I think that if Sir Wilfrid Laurier agreed it would be better that he should have a private interview with you than that we should enter upon a discussion here unless Sir Wilfrid would like to make some general observations.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] No, I have nothing of any general information to offer Mr. Goschen except that the question I can acknowledge does not assume the proportion that it has assumed in other parts of the Colonies.

Mr. Goschen.] What?

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] That the question of the contribution to the Navy has not reached the same degree of importance as it has reached in other Colonies. As to that it is altogether with us a new question which has never been discussed at all. Though we are by the side of a powerful nation, still there is no such thing as a thought of war in Canada. I find since I have been in England that the thought of war is present perhaps at all times here amongst all classes of the community, but with us, in Canada, we never think of it. It is true we are by the side of a powerful nation, we are always with them; but we look upon our conflicts with them as family troubles which mean nothing very serious. Perhaps there may be some practical points which had better be reserved for confidential discussion than for discussion here.

The Secretary of State.] Then as regards the offer which Sir Gordon Sprigg has alluded to on behalf of the Cape Colony, I do not think that at present he has formulated it definitely, and perhaps that also would be better reserved for private discussion with Mr. Goschen.

Sir Gordon Sprigg.] Very much, sir. I may say that was what I was myself going to propose. I thought it would be convenient if I could discuss the matter with the First Lord of the Admiralty, and lay before him the proposals I would make. I would say that I did not come here with the view of making any bargain whatever with the Admiralty; what I propose will be unconditional. The Admiralty has at present a naval station at Simons Bay. From that station the ships work eastward and westward on the African coast-very much upon the west coast for the protection of the Crown Colonies there; but I regard the possession of South Africa as essential to the existence of England as an Empire, and I have no doubt whatever that in the interests of the Empire that will always be a station, and there will always be a considerable force there; but I can conceivo it possible that a great emergency might arise that would render it necessary to concentrate a powerful fleet in some part of the world, it might be at a distance from South Africa, and it might then be necessary to withdraw a considerable portion or even the whole of the squadron now on the African coasts. In that case I should, on behalf of the Colony, recognise that emergency, and consider that the Admiralty were doing what was required in the interests of the Empire as a whole; and it might be necessary for us, even out there, to make some sacrifices in order to support the interests of the Empire. That is the position which I take up here, and it is upon that that I shall base the proposals which I shall be prepared to submit to the First Lord of the Admiralty. The agreement which we enter into will be a T 2

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