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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON)

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first-class cruiser, with treble the number of men carried by a third-class. cruiser, it alters the financial conditions altogether.

Mr. Seddon.] I admit that; I want to say here that I should not be doing my duty to the Colonies were I not to call the attention of the Board of the Admiralty and the Premiers here that the class of boat that I have mentioned now must be well known to the Admiralty as being of no use whatever in case of attack either from the east, if some of the powerful cruisers they have there were to come down, and the same from the west.

Mr. Goschen.] Well, you know you must draw distinctions between ships that are under the agreement and the squadron that we keep there in addition, because under the agreement you have a certain number of ships on the cost on which you pay interest.

Mr. Seddon.] Quite so.

Mr. Goschen.] Besides that, there are other ships; there is the flagship, the "Orlando. The "Orlando" is a powerful ship, and when ships are withdrawn, and when Sir Frederick Richards has proposed to me to send out one ship to relieve another-I am not speaking of your special ships under the agreement-I have noticed that it was a newer ship, and a stronger ship than the ship that was going to be replaced, so that we have our eye upon this matter, and it is our interest, as I take it to be-your interest, I mean that we should not starve the Colonies, the Colonies being part of the Empire for which we are responsible.

Mr. Seddon.] They were on the station when the arrangement was made, and, as business men, it is a question whether you will go on contri- buting moneys for maintaining a class of vessel on the station which is no earthly use.

Mr. Goschen.] They are always being used.

Mr. Seddon.] They are being used for going to the islands or making surveys; that is the only use that is made of them.

Mr. Goschen.] Making surveys! Is anything more important? What will Sir John Forrest say to that?

Sir John Forrest.] You have not got any surveyors though it is a service of great importance.

Mr. Seddon] We have had to pay for our own surveys in New Zealand; we are not called upon to pay for surveys made in the interests of the other Colonies.

Mr. Reid.] They are all of a certain class specified in the agreement, and a little better, I think.

Sir John Forrest.] Well, they have been there for the last 18 years. Admiral Sir Frederick Richards.] We have relieved the "Ringdove" by a new vessel, the "Torch."

Sir John Forrest.] But the "Karrakatta" and the "Mildura." Admiral Sir Frederick Richards.] They are new ships.

Mr. Reid.] They were built under this agreement, and they have got colonial names.

Admiral Sir Frederick Richards.] They were specially built under the Imperial Defence Act.

Mr Reid.] And got the colonial names in pursuance of this agreement.

Mr. Goschen.] They were built under the Imperial Defence Act-specially built. During their construction-I know that myself, because I was Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time during their construction you agreed to pay on a certain cost. We improved the ships because there were some

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later improvements out, and they cost considerably more than we were bound to make them by the agreement, and they were specially constructed for the Australian service. Those are five cruisers and two torpedo gunboats, the “Mildura," and the others, whose names I forget.

Mr. Seddon.] What is the name of the torpedo boat.

Admiral Sir Frederick Richards.] The “ Karrakatta" and the" Boomerang" are the two torpedo gunboats.

Mr. Reid.] They were specially built for that kind of service.

Mr. Goschen.] We have more than carried out our contract.

Mr. Seddon.] I am not saying that you have not, but I say this, that it would pay New Zealand, and as far as New Zealand is concerned I would prefer to pay more and to have a better class of boat than to maintain the present contract with the present class of boats; that is what I mean to say clearly,

Mr. Goschen.] If you all say the same, we will consider the point, that is to say, if you will contribute more.

Mr. Seddon.] I should like that phase of the question gone into-whether the Admiralty consider that under all the circumstances it would be desirable that the contract ought to be strengthened in that direction. I say that it would be much better to extend the agreement in that direction than to keep us with the class of boats as they are now.

Admiral Sir Frederick Richards.] Those are all practically new vessels, and they are all good fighting ships, every one of them.

Mr. Seddon.] The "Royalist" and the "Pylades."

Admiral Sir Frederick Richards.] They have special duties, you see; they have the whole police of the ocean to look after on the Australasian station and they have got sail power; they are vessels that do their work thoroughly; there is the Pylades" and the Royalist"; we could not work the mastless ships so conveniently among the groups of islands in the Western Pacific.

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Mr. Goschen.] You require a special class of ship.

Admiral Sir Frederick Richards.] The getting of coal would be a serious difficulty.

Mr. Goschen.] You do not pay for those at all. I am quite prepared to say that, having due regard to the necessities of other parts of the Empire, we look upon the Australian station as one of our very important stations. Looking to the preparations of other powers and what could be done against them, we take every precaution that could well be taken, and quite recognise our responsibility for the defence of the Australian waters on the lines I have indicated.

Admiral Sir Frederick Richards.] And as regards the flagship, it is proposed to relieve the " Orlando" by one of the first-class cruisers.

Mr. Seddon.] I have done all I want to do by calling attention to it, and as I say,

the small boats are serviceable in connexion with the islands; we do not pay for those, I know that, they are the class of boats that are in the agreement; but I say they might be suitable elsewhere, and they might be replaced by more powerful boats, and we would contribute to that and leave it to the Admiralty to determine how the squadron in Australian waters can be strengthened.

Mr. Goschen.] But you see we have got to look not only to defence in time of war, but we have got to look at what Sir Frederick Richards has very properly called the policeing of the seas. We have continual demands to go

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