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PRIVY COUNCIL. services in this country. If it is a rich man he can come without; if it is not

a rich man, if you wish him to attend, you must find the means.

Mr. Kingston.] The qualification is not due to his abilities, but it is affluence or poverty which I think highly objectionable.

Mr. Reid.] It detracts from his position as a judge in one of Her Majesty's courts; that is the idea that occurs to me. England makes enormous sacrifices every year to her Colonies, amounting to millions. It is just drawing the line at a point which is too insignificant, and I should think unworthy of the Imperial Government in her treatment of the Colonies.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] The whole composition of the Board, the members of the Judicial Committee, are not paid here; they are not paid here.

Mr. Reid.] That is the difficulty; 1 thought they were paid judges, I spoke under a misunderstanding.

Sir George Turner.] I thought they were paid judges.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] It would be worth some half-hour's discussion upon that, and I should suggest that we should adjourn.

additional

Mr. Kingston.] I should like to say a word on the question of the right of appeal. I do not sympathise at all with any proposal for constituting the High Court of Australia, which is proposed as an addition to existing tribunals, if constituting that court would simply impose an barrier between the litigants and ultimate justice. I think, also, that the power

of making our own laws is only first in importance to the power of interpreting them, and there is no doubt that instances have been recorded in which the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council from lack of local knowledge and the genius which has promoted our laws, have not given as satisfactory interpretation to disputed provisions as would nave been given by our own tribunal. I trust, therefore, that the proposals with reference to the right of appeal will be maintained as they are, or if they are altered at all it will be in the direction of abridging them, because I am sure there would be nothing more foreign to Australian sentiment than simply an addition to the difficulties which litigants would have to encounter in the way of final justice. As regards the point of the Australian judge, whoever he may be, giving his whole time to his duties in the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, no doubt there are a great many reasons in favour of it, and no doubt also the difficulty can be met by the provision of a suitable salary, and although it is said to constitute a distinction between the Colonial judges and the other judges, while the judges here can give their time and attention to the matters without any considerable loss, the others have to come from other parts of the world for the purpose of discharging their duties, for which, I think, the Imperial Exchequer might be called upon to pay. I think also that in a matter of this sort, not involving a very large sum, it is, following the idea of Mr. Reid, hardly consonant with the liberal treatment which it is said we receive in other matters, to seek to exact a contribution in this small respect, and I trust effect will be given to the general idea of representatives on this important tribunal, not merely by the appointment, but by the provision of salaries to enable them to discharge their duties.

The Secretary of State.] I must say that is a most extraordinary argument

have you put before us, Mr. Kingston. We spend millions and millions in the defence of the Empire, and practically get nothing whatever on the part of the Colonies, therefore you think you have a right to ask us for money voted by Parliament from our taxpayers here, and go through all the criticism which a proposal of that kind would involve, to pay for judges for whom we have not asked, who were appointed representatives on the Privy Council at your request to represent you in your interest. I confess that I should have thought myself that there would have been a feeling of humiliation on the part of the Colonies to ask such a thing. I do not say that if they do ask for it we shall refuse; we shall have to pass it through

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Parliament, there is no provision for it in the meantime, and we shall have to say that because the Australian Colonies are not willing to pay the contribu- tion which has been made absolutely necessary upon their own request, we are asked to bring it before Parliament, but I think it is possible that Parliament would grant it.

Sir John Forrest.] I agree to find our part of the money. I am quite prepared to pay my share at once.

Mr. Reid.] What does it amount to?

Sir John Forrest.] Nothing at all.

Sir George Turner.] I was only under the impression that you paid the other judges, and that being so it would be invidious in us to pay our judges. As you do not pay the other judges I am perfectly prepared to pay our proportion.

Sir John Forrest.] It is a very small matter; it is the look of it.

Mr. Kingston.] As far as the Colony from which I come is concerned, we did not ask for representation of that character.

Mr. Reid.] You make use of it, though.

Mr. Kingston.] We thought that the best appointment should be made. and that an appointment should be made that would be the most creditable to Australia. If my friend Mr. Reid wants any further information I should be happy to give it to him.

Mr. Reid.] You found a way out and a way in.

Mr. Kingston.] What I wish is that we should be allowed to interpret our own law.

Mr. Reid.] That we cannot always do, I may say.

Mr. Kingston.] Not my learned friend, Mr. Reid; but we do. At the same time if the suggestion is made that Australian judges should not have that power and that British judges should be appointed for the purpose of effecting that interpretation, we ought at least to be able to demand that these judges should be remunerated from the British Exchequer.

Mr. Reid.] I entirely withdraw my remarks in view of what I have been basis told that the Imperial judges are not paid. I spoke on a wrong altogether. I would not ask the Imperial Government to vote the sum; I think it would really be monstrous.

Mr. Kingston.] I am expressing my own opinion; and, in reply to the Chairman, I do not propose to go into a comparison of the advantages and responsibilites of the Imperial connexion.

Sir Gordon Sprigg.] I should like to say that I do not in the least agree with the remarks that have been made. The judge who represents South Africa on the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council was appointed on the recommendation of the Cape Government, and I think that it is the duty of the Cape Parliament, and I am quite sure they are prepared to pay his He has a permanent salary. I salary and whatever expense he is put to. should be ashamed to ask the Imperial Government to pay it.

Mr. Reid.] Before we separate, there is just one matter, quite a matter of the general Conference, but it is of very great importance to Australia; that

is the question about alien immigration. I know it is asking a great deal, but do you think you could possibly grant a short conference on that; Sir George Turner would like to be present.

The Secretary of State.] Can you meet on Thursday morning; that is the first day I have got?

Mr. Reid.] If we could have half an hour.

The Secretary of State.] What time do you start, Sir George?

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