CO885-(26N14) — Page 145

A 123

6

[Continued.

│।?}?། । ༐ ]

mmimmimic.o

885/26

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- |COPTRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

4

17 Nocember, 1919.]

COLONIAL MEDICAL SERVICES COMMITTEE.

MR. JOSEPH ARTHUR PICKELS, M.B., B.8. (London), &o.

their wives until they have obtained the sanction of the Governor, Is it not a rigid as it appears?- There is a certain list of official who can take their wires by courtesy. They ask, but they have tho right.

60. In it a hardship? Are there officers who wish to take their wives and are not allowed to? Are there Medical Officers? There are others; I cannot my very definitely about Medical Officers; they have not come across my way yet; I have always on. deavoured to arrange.

61. Chairman: Do you often have to refuse per- mission ?-Well, I have not.

62. That is over several years' experience P--I have been three years in the North.

63. And during that time you do not remember a refusal ?--You, I have had to refuse one.

64. Was that the just on the list ?-There is a gazetted list of people whose position enables them, or provides them with sufficient convenience, so that they can always bring their wives out if they wish.

65. Sir Harry Verney; I am particularly thinking of the applicant. A man comes to the Colonial Office and anys, "I want to go to West Africa," and he reads here that he cannot take his wife without the sanction of the Governor. Will he, in nine cases out of ten, be able to take his wife? He would, any- how, on his first appointment, until he knew local conditions, have to spend two or three years out there before he could take his wife? The probability is that he would.

66. I just wanted to be quite sure of the position in England. You were speaking of something else which is not quite satisfactory for the people in the West African Medical Service I quite understand that that is so--and you think that that is detri- mental to candidates entering for that Service?—It has either to be worn off, or stops have to be taken to do away with it.

67. When Sir James Fowler suggests that the way to do away with it is to form a Colonial Medical Service, you do not think that would have that effect?-No.

68. What would better conditions -You will have to make the Service specially attractive, and, as far as I can make out, those at the top of the tree, those that should have some reward for their labours, ought to be recognised; so that people outside will realise that the men who have done the work all their lives out there are not unworthy of appreciation at the end of it.

69. The Colonial Office people will tell me if I am wrong I do not think there is that feeling in the administrative side, and I should take it the reason is, fairly often, that men on the administrative aide very often get transferred to a high position in the West Indies or East Africa. Ho always has the possibility of looking forward to becoming a Governor, if not in the West Indies, elsewhere, because there is a Colonial Service as a whole. Would not that apply to the Medical Service quite as much?—I do not follow.

70. An Administrative man who goes into the Administrative Service of West Africa may think he will end up as Governor of Jamaica. In practice a certain number do go to other places than West Africa, whereas a man who goes into the West African Medical Service pretty well knows that if he dies in the service of the country it will be in West Africa-anyhow, he will not go anywhere else.

Chairman: There are examples where men have gone from West Africa to be the Chief Medical Officer of an important Colony such as the Straits Settle- Que man went there from Northern Nigeria, where you are now, and, I might add, he did not like it so well as West Africa.

ruents.

Sir Harry Verney: Is it not rarer than in the Administrative Branch?

Chairman: I do not think so.

Sir Harry Verney: When we were doing patronage, ve led the Administrative people to think they might leave, and the Medical people to know they could not.

[Continued.

Chairman: You are talking of the new candidate, who knows nothing. It is the new man from England who dislikes going to West Africa; the man who has heen in West Africa a few years generally prefers to go back to West Africa.

71. Sir Harry Verney: I want to get from Dr. Pickels how we can get at our new candidate. When ho talks within his profession of going to West Africa, it puts a cloud over him. How can we get over tha? Perhaps we enunot. Would better pay do it? How will it not be a stigma to belong to the West African Medical Service P-I do not say it is a stigma; I do not go so far as that.

72. However it is put that is taking it a little further than you took it-what you said was, that there is a feeling in England among the profession that he has not done the best for himself?--Yes, 1 think there is.

73. How can that be got over --It is very difficult tu Bay.

As far as I can make out, or as far na I can form any opinion at present, the sooner you get it worked by competitive examination the better, but to do that it must be made sufficiently attractive. 74. Chairman: Might I put it in another way? Do you not think that 21 years ago West Africa was much more unpopular than it is now?-Oh, yes; there is no doubt of it.

75. In the Medical Service? Oh, yes, in all the branches of the Service.

76. Is the stigma, or the dislike to West Africa, diminishing?—I think it is, but the knowledge of the people in England has not extended at the same rate, I think.

Sir Harry Verney: Comparing ten years ago with to-day, there were more candidates for the West African Medical Service then than there are to-day. I suppose that is because of the War.

77. Sir James Fowler: May 1 interpose one ques- tion? I think I gathered from you that the Medical Profession esteem a Service to which admission is obtained by competitive examination more than a Service to which admission is not so obtained. Do you think that is so I think that applies to most things; if you have to do something to get something, you will appreciate it inuch more.

78. You will agree that they do?—Yes.

79. Take the R.A.M.C.; the men go into that at 21 or 22; the low age here is 25. You would have a much younger staff, no doubt. Do you think the younger staff would be better than the men who are obtained now?—No; we do not want men of 21, they are too young.

80. You do not want men who have just qualified.

I have examined for the R.A.M.C. for a great number of years, and the greater number are men who have just qualified from the schools. This question has often been discussed, and very carefully thought out? -Yo, I know.

81. There are very great difficulties in the way of instituting a competitive examination for entrants to the Colonial" medical appointments or to the Weat African Medical Staff. That is one, and there are others. You could possibly do it, I admit, with the West African Medical Staff; you could possibly do it with the East African Medical Staff, if they were unified; but, so long as you have a great deficiency of candidates, to set up competitive examination is difficult P-I agree, when the candidates are deficient, you cannot very well do it; but if a man has to do something to get his post he will appreciate it much more, and other people will see that he has to do something to get it, and he has done something to get it, and they are bound to give more apprecia- tion to the thing.

82. Sir Humphry Rolleston: With regard to the question of the stigma against West Africa, did 1 gather that you thought that was more active in the Medical Profession than in the executive branch? I it not a general feeling against West Africa, that at one time undesirable people went there?--Oh! yes.

83. You do not think it is in any way accentuated as regards the Medical Profesion?" I never gathered

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,

17 November, 1919.]

MR. JOSEPH ARTHUR PICKELS, M.B., B.S. (London), &c.

that myself in the profession, but you would know better? No; I have come across it occasionally; one does not altogether appreciate it, so, possibly, une attaches more importance to it than ono otherwise might

84. I think there is no difference between a medical man who goes to West Africa and the executive man who goes there?—I think there is rather.

85. You think it is against the medical man; that the medical man is thought to have failed, or to have shown signs of failing?—Something after that style.

86. Supposing there Wa an official who corre sponded to the Director-General of the Naval or the Army Service, to whom men come back and tell their grievances and report themselves, and regard as a friend, what kind of man would you have in your mind; would you have a man who has had a distinguished career in this country, or who has had a distinguished career in the Colonial Service?—Bo much depends on the individual. He would have to have some knowledge of the Service; it would not be No useful having a man who had never had any experience of what the men wors talking about.

87. How would it affect the individuals, do you think; do you think it would make much difference whether they looked up to him as a man who was eminent in the profession, or a man who had been through like experiences with themselves; which would weigh most with them?--There is more in it than that. If they think the man will be sympathetic and understand what they are driving at, and also will endeavour to help, he will get much more out of them than if they do not think so.

88. That is the personal; now as regards his quali fication?-1 think, as to qualification, he would re- quire to have some knowledge and experience of what they were driving at, otherwise he would not get standing.

89. Chairman: Some tropical experience?-Not necessarily tropical.

90. The Colonial Medical Service that you are speaking of is of the tropical kind?-Quite su. think it should be broader than exactly tropical.

91. Sir Humphry Rollerton; I do not know whether I was correct in thinking that possibly there might be some kind of feeling in the Service that, when a man retired, he did not, perhaps, receive a decoration or an honour; is there anything in that? I think there is, to a certain extent, not that the men are itching for it, that is not the point; the point is, if they were given, the Service would stand at a higher figure.

92. It is perhaps rather a large order, but, with your experience, looking back, imagine that you are in the position of a man who could direct and make alterations in the Service, what would be the main points, other than those which you have mentioned, that you would try and modify at the present time?

It is rather a large question.

93. What is the outstanding feature, if any?-I am not sure that there is any outstanding feature in the Service. I think it is satisfactory. It might. be modified or improved, but I think, taking things generally, it is satisfactory.

Dr. Hood: I hope the question I am going to ask will not be regarded as personal in any way. Do you think the Service has been improved, in Nigeria, by being amalgamated?

Chairman: You mean the Northern and Southern, or Nigerian, Gold Coast and Bierra Leone?

Dr. Hood: Oh, no, only Northern and Southern F- I consider it has been a distinct advance.

94. Do you think the advance could be continued by uniting the Gold Coast and Sierra Leone and Gambia? They do not lend themselves so much to it Bs the northern and southern portions of Nigeria.

95. But if the whole thing could be unified into one service under a Director or an Inspector, do you not think it would be an advantage? Yes, I think it would. Of course, you have to make many provisos under those lines.

96. The countries are more or less the same in many ways?--The countries and the conditions are more or less the game.

97. Do you not think you might go a step further and join in the Enst African Colonies? I do not know; I would not like to go into that; I do not know so much about East Africa.

98. But from what one hears from men who come back from there, the countries are very similar, the diseases bru Try similar, and the experience generally would not like to hazard an opintor on that; I do not know enough about it.

am

the

99. With regard to wives going out, there has never been any case of the Servico having suffered by the presence of a wife?—No, I have never heard it." 100. must say I have never heard it.-1 inclined to think, if I might venture a remark with reference to what you have been talking about, that in the Northern and Southern provinces, positions, in a way, might be a little more defined to the satisfaction of all in reference to the two P.M.O'. and the Director; whether or not the Director should not be really the P.M.O. in a way, and the other man simply working under his direc- tion. I do not mean to say that I have had any friction in any way; it is not a personal matter at all; the only point of principle is, whether the P.M.O. should be more or less independent and recog nise that the Director really is the controlling

feature.

not

101. Chairman: Do you know why it was arranged that he should be the Head of the Nigerian Medical Service?—I do not know.

102. Dr. Hood: He is the Head, but he is not an administrative officer in the ordinary sense? He is the Head

103. Chairman: Do you know any reason why the medical service should not be administered by a Director in the same way as it is in other Colonies; the two Nigerias are amalgamated now?—I do not know the reason why it was arranged as it is.

104. Mr. Fideltan: Did not the post come into existence; in the actual amalgamation of Northern and Southern Nigeria, was it not a sort of post that was created partly to help on the way to amalgama tion, a sort of forerunner of the event? I have an idea that that was so?-What exactly was the date of the amalgamation?

in

105. The Secretary: The amalgamation was January, 1914.-I think the amalgamation was before then.

106. Mr. Fiddian: I think it was partially; I think that was really the reason. You said there was a certain difference in the position of Northern and Southern Nigeria and that of Nigeria and the Gold Coast, although the staff is nominally amalgamated. The difference, I take it, is that in Nigeria you have a Director and the people are moved from north to south indifferently? Well, they are not, but they might be.

107. But they are also liable to be as between the Gold Coast and Sierra Leone, or the Gold Coast and Nigeria? It is much more inconvenient.

108. It is simply a question of inconvenience ?—To a large extent.

109. If a man is moved from the Gold Coast to Nigeria, his actual sea-passage is paid? Oh, yes.

110. If a man were moved from Nigeria to take an appointment overseas, say in Ceylon, his passage would not be paid; he would have to pay it himself! -He would not to England.

111. Yes, that is so, he would not, but from England to Ceylon, he would have to pay, would he notI do not know,

112. Chairman: Would not the Colony pay itf- 113. Mr. Fiddian: Not if the post were over £500 a year. That is one of the difficulties. Last one question on competitive examination; you would, I suppose, agree that some people might get in under a competitive examination, that are not quite suited to ordinary West African conditions? That is so, but, as far as I have heard, there are means adopted by other branches by which they can manage to ex- clude them.

114. The Interviewing Committee, or something of that kind; I see? Yes."

115. Are you quite familiar with the difficulties of the position of Natives of West Africa in relation to the West African Medical Staff; I mean member. ship of the staff? The difficulties?

116. You know the agitation ?—Yes.

117. It would be rather more difficult to keep them out under a competitive system, would it not, suppos- ing it were still desired to keep them out? Yes, there is no doubt it would.

}

A

123

5

[Continued.

י