CO885-(23-24) — Page 559

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

PEPCO 885

24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

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Does it depend upon whether they see them or not?-Yes, it depends. man does not see a warning he cannot take heed of it.

If a

Exactly; and you sent your warnings to how many newspapers?-Nearly 1,600. Would they only appear once?-They would only appear once in all probability. Each one would be sent and appear once in each newspaper?-That is so. Whereas these advertisements of Mr. Hetherington appear week by week?— Yes, as long as they are paid for.

Mr. TERENCE Charles MacnaGHTEN, SWOTN.

Examined by Mr. COмYNS Carr.

Are you a first-class clerk in the Colonial Office?—Yes.

Are you Chairman of the Emigrants' Information Office?—Yes.

I take it the work of the Emigrants' Information Office is only a part of your duties?—Yes.

you

Do remember accompanying Mr. Jones to call on Mr. Hetherington about the 10th January last year?-Yes.

Did you see Mr. Hetherington, this gentleman here?-Someone very like him. I do not know how far you recollect the conversation that took place. Will you give me, to the best of your recollection, what you told him and what his answer was?-I told him that we had evidence to show that there was a great deal of distress in the Argentine, and that we had come to him to make friendly representations, and to try to get him to work in with our office and refer people to our office, and not encourage them unduly to go out there.

The MAGISTRATE: You made friendly representations with regard to what?— To prevent him from inducing people to emigrate to the Argentine.

Mr. COMYNS CARR: Did you say anything to him or he anything to you about the statements which were made that the Argentine Government would find employ- ment, or the State Labour Bureau would find employment?--Yes. I am sure I made it clear to him that we had ample evidence to show that these statements were not carried out. The statements obviously could not be carried out.

And what you told him with regard to the destitution was true. What did he reply to that?--I do not remember exactly what he replied, but I remember one or two things he said.

Tell me what you recollect?-He said something like "I have your warnings," "I issue your warnings at this office ""I exhibit your warnings," or some words or phrase like that he used.

or,

Generally, did he or did he not promise to do what you asked him?-He very emphatically did not do what I asked him. I think he was very evasive.

Cross-examined by Mr. RAEBURN.

I want you to tell us a little more about that. What do you mean by he very emphatically did not do what you asked him, and was evasive?-I thought he was evasive and tried to evade the issue. He evidently did not want to do what we wanted him to do, and would not promise.

Trying to evade the issue is not being very emphatic and not promising?-I think you are rather intentionally misunderstanding me. I did not say that.

1 do not want to misunderstand you. To my mind he very clearly evaded the issue, and did not wish to meet us.

Tell us what he said. Do not let us have any evading of the issues. First of all tell us what you said to him. You are asking about things which took place fourteen months ago, to which I did not attach much importance at the time. You

must remember that.

I will remember anything you please, but you come here to give evidence to show that Mr. Hetherington knew perfectly well he was telling these emigrants what was not true. Now just try and recollect a little more definitely, and not quite so evasively, what passed at that interview. Tell us how you began. I told him we had come to see him with regard to this question of emigration to the Argentine Republic, which had given us enormous trouble, and insisted that we had any amount of evidence to show that the ordinary British emigrant without capital to the Argentine became destitute there frequently; and that we had also evidence to show that a very large percentage of the emigrants whose cases were brought to

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our notice had been sent out there through his agency, and considering the number of these agents that there are in England, it was amazing the number he had

sent out.

You told him that, did you?—Yes, I did. Go on.

What else passed?--I remember him saying two things, what I have already quoted to Mr. Comyns Carr, the remark about, 1 exhibited your poster," and he also said, "I do not want to make people destitute or, "I do not want to cause people to starve," or something like that.

It does not look as if he did, does it ?--I hope not. more about the interview at this distance of time.

I should not like to say much

Your last answer to my friend was: He very emphatically did not promise to do what I asked him." I want to know what made you say that?-His manner made me say that. I did not think he meant to submit.

Tell us a little more about it. Manner" will not do. What did he say to give you that impression? What I said, I think, was, he evaded the issue. He seemed to be anxious to evade the issue, and he was not going to do what I asked him, and this case is a perfect proof that he did not do what I asked him, because exactly the same thing has been going on since as went on before.

Ever since the 10th January?--I am not sure how many of these present witnesses went after that date, or how many went before.

Did you go away with the impression that Mr. Hetherington was determined

to continue what you regarded as an improper course of conduct with regard to these emigrants?—Yes.

You did?—I did.

Is it not an extraordinary thing that you took no steps until February of this year, more than a year afterwards, to endeavour to stop Mr. Hetherington-What do you mean, we took no steps?

No steps were taken to stop it?-My Committee issued a warning on the 31st January.

Which was sent to Mr. Hetherington ?--There were 1,600 sent out in this country to all the passage brokers. Do you suppose a man like Mr. Hetherington, whose business is emigration, would not receive one?

The MAGISTRATE: You must not put questions to the learned counsel.

Mr. RAEBURN: You have been endeavouring to create the impression that Mr. Hetherington is the chief offender, if not in London, in the country?—Yes, I should say so.

You went and saw him on the 10th January?—Yes.

And you issued a warning notice on the 10th January ?--Yes.

And you took no steps to ensure that that was sent to the chief offender in this country. Why? It was published in the whole of the Press. I should think that

was sufficient. I should think that a shipping agent would keep his eye on our office. Besides, I am sorry to say I did not think it would be the slightest good. I had sent it I do not think it would make him alter his mind in the least.

If

He told you he exhibited your warnings in his office?—Yes, or words to that effect.

That, I gather, you regarded as untrue?-He said it.

Were there any warnings exhibited in his office?—I cannot remember that there were. I cannot say that there were.

That would be rather an important fact for you to notice, would not it?-Cer- tainly, but I should say that there were not.

What would he have said if you had asked him, Sorry there was not any to "show you "Of course, he had had warnings for years past, but it does not follow he had any that day.

I am not going to ask you about these various documents, the pamphlets, because I have asked Mr. Jones about those. I will ask you this. Can you explain how you came to leave the impression on Mr. Hetherington's mind that he was to encourage emigration to the British Colonies rather than to foreign countries, supposing that was the impression you left on his mind.

As a matter of fact, the Office does not encourage people to emigrate, but if they wish to emigrate it would be to British Colonies, for obvious reasons.

That is what you told Mr. Hetherington?—I do not know; he might have gathered it from our publications.

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Was not there rather an evasion of the issue?—I do not know what you mean.

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