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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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23 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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25 February 1914.]

WHALING COMMITTEE:

Mr. WILLIAM LAMOND ALLARDYCE, C.M.G.

claim it from us; but should opportunity arise to get rid of the third whaler, I should get rid of the third whaler,

452. (Chairman.) That means the third ship?—The third whale catcher.

453. (Mr. Baker.) If it were possible to take inter- national notion to protect whales, what kind of protec tion do you think should be proposed -A limited number of factories and whale catchers.

454. If it were limited according to say rule it would be rather a difficult thing to propose, I should think P-There should be a limited number of whale factories. I do not think there ought to be more than two whale catchers to every whale factory. Then, again, remember there will be a time when, as a matter of fact, Licensees that will not pay when whales are scarce.

hold that when whales are scarce it is necessary to have a greater number of whale watchers than when whales are plentiful. That is one of the peculiarities of the whale fishing.

455. (Chairman.) Because they must take so many whales to pay their expenses P--Yee.

456. And I gathered from a conversation I had recently that the extra ship very often makes the dif ference between profit and loss?-Exactly.

457. That is to say, the running expenses of the extra ship are more than covered by the extra whales? -Exactly. It is a very difficult question.

458. (Mr. Darnley.) Do you know if the whales benefit much by the Antarctic pack ice, where, I under- stand, they are immune from pursuit ? Are there many of them within the line of the pack P-The whales are going further south each year now, and the further south they go the more pack ice they will meet, and, therefore, in all probability the safer they will be from pursuit.

459. (Mr. Holl.) There was some place you men- tioned where you thought it would be impossible for whalers to carry on their industry if they were com pelled to consume the whole carcase ?-Yes, Graham's Land.

460. Do you think if that place was extinguished ne a whaling station it would be a very serious matter for the Government in connection with their licences for controlling the business?-It would be a very serious thing for the whalers, because all the whales are going there just now.

461. On the other hand, would it not probably make a very valuable reserve for the whales ?-After all, it is only a comparatively small locality, Graham's Land, whatever it may be-200 or 300 miles in length-and if the whalers are so disposed they can work right round the pack ice to where Charcot had his expedition, and where Scott had his expedition at the Bay of Whales, and right down to Alexandra Land.

462. Unless they have a point d'appui they can hardly work the whalers?—No, the whalers must have a base.

463. So that if you closed it effectually by insisting on their consuming all their material, the closed district would have a very large area round it where the whales might be protected P-As I said before, I think it would be unreasonable to expect the whalers to utilise the whole of the carcase of the whale at Graham's Land. I think it would be an unreasonable condition.

464. I quite understand that, but would it or would it not be reasonable to clear them out of it altogether in whatever way it was done -Then you have only to say: "There shall be no fishing at Graham's Land"— you merely require to make an arbitrary order and whaling stops, provided, of course, that the Government has the machinery on the spot to enforce the order.

465. That is another way of saying the same thing apparently, but do you consider that the formation of such a reserve would be any sort of improvement on the present condition of affairs?-I do not think there is any need for such a reserve at present, because outside that particular 200 or 800 miles I refer to, the whole of the Antarctic Continent is open to the whales. It is a reserve now; it will not be touched.

466. I do not know the local conditions, but the whale food only forms itself at certain depths of water. I understand, and the whales might very well be restricted to certain areas because they get nothing to

[Continued.

at elsewhere. I take it that at a fair distance from the shore in very deep water the whale food is not particularly likely to be generated?-As to that I should not like to express a definite opinion, because I have seen the whale fead nearly all the way from Brazil to the Falklands.

467. I am not saying that I by any means hold the opinion that it is necessary to make such a reserve, but if it were necessary to make a reserve could it not be created in that way?-We could make a reserve all along the coast of Graham's Land if we thought it desirable to do so, and have no fishing further south than the Shetlands Group or so many miles off it. At the present time there are any amount of whales round the Bay of Whales, where Shackleton went.

468. (Mr. Vernon.) I should like to ask whether with modern methods of whaling any number of whales are injured and not captured ?-A certain percentage. If they happen to be struck in a non-vital part it is quite possible that the harpoon may withdraw.

489. Do you think, generally speaking, there is any large wastage in that way?--No. I think the large percentage of the whales struck are caught at least, I am inclined to think ao from what I hear. I went out whaling once and we struck several whales and did not catch them, but the weather was very rough. If the sea is very rough and the weather very boisterous it is very difficult to hit a whale in a vital part with the I understand that there is a boat going up and down. good deal of calm weather along the coast of Graham's Land, where much of the whaling is now done.

470. (Chairman.) The fishing conditions are easier ? -Somewhat easier at certain times of the year.

471. (Mr. Lamb.) It was suggested to us the other day that a possible system would be to stop the whale fishing for a period of two or three years, and then have a period of fishing for two or three years. Would that be feasible, in your opinion ?-I fear it would not be feasible in view of the leases we have granted at South Georgia for 21 years. It would be feasible as far as the South Shetlands are concerned, but it would involve us in great difficulties with the companies we I hardly think it would have encouraged to go there.

be practicable unless we gave them lung notice before- hand. They have expended large sums of money in purchasing floating factories and putting up new fac- tories with modern machinery, and so forth, and if we suddenly gave them notice that three years hence we would not allow any more fishing for a period of three "You years they might reasonably turn round and say: should have told us so quite a long time ago."

472. (Chairman.) We would have the old question of the public-house licences coming up again --You.

473. (Mr. Lamb,) Of course, there is absolutely nothing else they could possibly turn these factories to P-Nothing else, unfortunately. The vessel they use is also a type of vessel by itself, and there is par- ticular machinery which is peculiar to the trade.

474. And there is no other fish they could pursue, even if it was not in itself an economically sound pro position, merely to keep them going while they were there-I fear not; I do not know what else they could pursue.

478. (Mr. Darnley.) How much reason do you think there is to suppose that the Humpbacks are the only class of whales which come along in the direction from the Cape annually in the beginning of the Ant- arctic summer to South Georgia, the South Orkneys, and Graham's Land. That is understood to be the general direction of migration, is it not, in the early part of the summer?-That is what the whalers say; they have met them down at the Sandwich Group, and then met them at South Georgia, and they have been met going past the Orkneys and at the Shetlands. But I believe there is another migration at a certain time which comes from the Shetlands, round the corner of the Orkneys. I cannot tell you where they go to, We know very whether they are working back or not.

little about the migration of the whale.

478. (Chairman.) That is your reason for advocat. ing the research ship to pursue them P-Yes.

477. (Mr. Holt.) Would it be necessary to have a special ship, or would an ordinary old gun-boat do P

25 February 1914.]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. WILLIAM LAMOND ALLARDYCE, C.M.G.

Any old boat, I think, would do, if she had a little speed. She ought to be able to steam 10 or 12 knots,

478. She would not have to be fitted for ice, or any thing of that sort ?-No. The whales must come up to blow every twenty minutes or so, and they would be able to follow them along. They show themselves a certain amount above the water; you can tell whether it is a Humpback or a "Blne," etc. It would take a long time.

479. (Chairman.) You propose to pursue them over a very long journey Thousands of miles. That what we really want to find out.

480. You would want a good sea boat?—Yes, she would have to be a good sea boat.

481. (Mr. Baker.) Do you think it would protect the whales considerably to give them a certain area of so many hundred square miles in which they must not be taken, assuming it practicable that the various countries would agree to that and police that area ?— That would depend entirely on the whale-feed, because if the whale-feed did not happen to go to that particular are the protection would be useless.

482. But if it were an area in which there were whale-feed ---Then they would come along and get the whale-feed, and so forth; but I do not think that would interfere with their migration: they would eat the whale-feed and hang about for a month or so and then go on again.

483. You think they all migrate considerable dis- tances ?-Yes, we know that they migrate.

484. (Chairman.) I take it from the emphasis you lay on the whale-feed that you think the migrations are food migrations P-I am inclined to think, and a good many whalers think, that where you get the whale-feed there you will get the whale, and that con- sequently means that wherever the whales go they probably are following the whale-feed.

485. I mentioned the point because we have had fairly definite evidence of certain pretty well defined migrations, and we have asked the question once or twice whether it is a food migration or a migration for the purposes of copulation or parturition, or anything of that kind, and on the whole I thought the tendency was to suggest that the food was incidental to a fixed migration, and that the migration was not entirely directed by food at any rate?-It is very difficult to express a definite opinion.

486, (Mr. Lamb.) Of course, this vessel you suggest would probably do a good deal towards finding out

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[Continued.

about that, because they could test if there was always an abundance of whale-food in the water where the whales were ?-Exactly.

487. That would be pretty strong evidence that they were following up the food, if that whale-food was not found in other places P-Yes. So far as the Falklands are concerned that is quite a small whaling area: the whales do not come about until the whale-feed is there. We know in the Falklands we do not get the whales during the winter season, but when, as I say, the whale. feed comes about. It starts about November and That is when carries on perhaps for several months.

the whales come about.

488. (Mr. Holt.) How long would it be necessary to pursue this method of investigation P-I should not like to say; I think it would certainly take a year or two, to put it in a very mild way. I do not say now that any very great results would be achieved even then, but it certainly would be helpful to us to know something about the life of the whale, because at present we are rather at sea.

489. Supposing the habits of the small crustace and other things on which the whales feed conform in the southern hemisphere more or less to the habits of similar organisme elsewhere, and that there are fairly definite generations of these things in each year, and that in each year there is a variation in date of brols accord- ing to the local temperature of the ocean, and that in different latitudes the supply of food varies in date of appearance somewhat for the same reason: the existence of such phenomena would more or less account for the migration following particular routes, would it not P-- It would seem so, on the face of it.

490. So that you might perhaps get more informa. tion by studying the habits and peculiarities of the whale-food than by watching the whale itself? Yes, but I think we ought to do both.

491. I suppose both could be carried on at the same time, although it seems rather an expensive experiment, looking to the upkeep of the ship, and so on?—Yes, but, of course, a great deal is at stake after all.

492. Would it justify an expenditure of about 5,0001. a year P--I should think that would be quite legitimate, provided the Colony is not called upon to pay it.

493. (Chairman.) You would not do it for 5,0001. a year, would you!--No, it would be more like 25,0007. a year.

The witness withdrew.

Captain L. BRUUN, called and examined.

404. (Chairman.) You are Manager, I believe, of the Whaling Station at Belmullet ?-Yes, Managing Director, I may say.

495. Have you experience of whaling in Southern waters as well?—Yes.

the

498. So that we can ask you questions which would not relate merely to the Irish fishing ?-I think so.

497. And you will be able to give us the benefit of your advice I have no experience of whaling in British Colonial waters, but in Portuguese waters I have experience.

498. You know what the general object of our Committee is; it is to consider the question whether whales need protection owing to the present rate of fishing, and whether, if so, one can find a method by which they can be protected. Those are the two quee- tions we have before us. I should like to ask you first, if I may, whether you, from your experience, think there is a danger that the whales which are at present being hunted will very soon be exterminated as a good many people have put it to us?-I do not think there is any fear of them being exterminated, but at the same time I certainly think in the waters where they are fishing they will decrease in numbers. As far as exterminating is concerned, I think that is quite impossible. We have before us now a few facts re-

garding the Irish fishing and also African fishing. There is a station in Ireland occupied by the Arran- more Whaling Company; they have been in operation for four or five or six years probably, and they have caught as a rule 25 to 30 whales to each steamer, and now this year they are closing up as the business does not pay.

A similar thing has occurred in Africa; a company is closing up there this year which caught an average of about 100 whales to each fishing steamer. Then when the whales get so exterminated that the boats can catch only a number like this they have to give it up; it does not pay. Consequently, I say when the whalers stop fishing there will yet be whales left for the purpose of breeding.

499. In fact you get natural protection P-Natural Take it in Norway. protection; that is what I mean. where there was such a great number of boats on the small piece of coast in the north of Norway, the Government did enforce a law prohibiting whaling, as you know, on account of the fisheries, which the whaling companies had no objection to, in fact, because they got compensated by the Government and the business did not pay. They say there are plenty of whales there now. Of course, that is only hearsay. As far as exterminating them, I think it is impossible anyhow with the present prices of oil and guano.