CO885-(23-24) — Page 172

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

23

PUBLIC

RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

TPELLCO 885

23 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO

25 February 1914.]

Mr. WILLIAM LAMOND ALLARDYCE, C.M.O.

406. So that as regards him, at any rate, you think that it is not so much a question of protecting him as Of course, I of not discouraging him?-That is so. am only telling you now what I have heard from dozens and dozens of different whale captains, and so forth; it is not my own personal eridence at all, because I have not been on these particular whaling grounds.

407. We have heard the suggestion before.--For instance, last year, the year I left the Falklando, curiously enough there were very few Humpback whales in the Belgica Strait, very few indeed, whereas at the end of the season when the whalers were going away the Humpback schools appeared in large numbers. I give that for what it is worth. It is also known that in the Yellow Sea eraotly the same thing has taken place, so that it has only confirmed what experience previously proved took place in the Yellow Sea. The Humpback did exactly the same thing there.

408. Have you any evidence to show to what extent the whales which are being fished from the Falklands are whales in passage from one place to another. or whales which come, at any rate, at quite regular periods-That would be a very difficult question to answer definitely, but I should say, as a matter of fact, they come along in schools from time to time in certain months. In all probability they follow the whale-feed. that is the small crustaces which go floating along the surface of the water, and wherever you have whale-feed you will invariably find whales. Where the whale-feed originates I am not in a position to my, but it does appear at certain times of the year, and when it appears you will get whales, but not at other times, at least not to the same extent.

409. (Mr. Daruley.) Are you aware that the Hump backs did not arrive at South Georgia at the usual time this year? No, I did not know that. I believe you told me so the other day.

410. It seems to have a bearing on your intelli- gence-Yes.

411. (Chairman.) Your personal observation does not extend to South Georgia and the other Depen dencies?-No, not South Georgia or the South Shetlands.

412. (Mr. Baker.) Could you give na any more defi- nite information as to the need, in your view, for pro- tecting the whales? Do you think the pursuit of the whales is much keener than it used to be, and that larger numbers are being killed year by year?-The whole system, of course, has altered enormously within the last 20 years; the whole of the whale-fishing indus- try has entirely altered since the introduction of the gun, which is placed in the bow of the whaler. That has revolutionised the whole of the whale fishing. Whereas formerly they went with harpoons, and, as a matter of fact, got a comparatively small number of whales, nowadays they go and get a very much larger number, because not only do they harpoon them, but they explode a bomb at the same time and kill the whale. However big the whale is, and however powerful, if he is struck in a vital part he has to succumb. Therefore the fishing to-day is much more deadly than it was 20 years ago.

413. They are killed in much greater numbers?—I am almost certain there have never been such large numbers of whales caught as have been taken in the Antarctic waters, at least so I have been told. I do not know that for a fact, but I should think it is common sense and reason, because they could not have got the numbers in the old days under the old oon- ditions.

414. (Chairman.) I think we have statistics to show that there has been an enormous increase of the catch -Yea.

415. What we are concerned to find out is to what extent the whales will stand the present intensity of fishing. That is the point. Of course, the ocean is a very large place, whereas the areas where they are fished are comparatively small, and unless they come within those areas there is no reason why the taking of a few thousand should be either one thing or another.

416. Unless they are the same herds passing from place to place and being attacked at different pointa ----

[Continued.

That is so. I suggested some time ago that the best way in which we could ascertain information about the whale would be to charter a vessel and let her follow the whales, and then we shall know something about the habits of the whale. It is not sufficient to send a man to South Georgia or to the South Shetlands to study dead whales. They are much more interesting to us while alire, because we want to know their habite, where they come from, and where they go to. So far as the Colonial Government is concerned it is imma- terial to us how many different kinda there are; what the fisherman want are whales, and we want so to protect the whales us to spin out the period of whale fishing for as long as ever we can, and not get them unduly killed off,

417. Because your licences are a source of revenue? -Yee, but in the best interests of the whale as well, apart from the licences. I think we could get better results by chartering a vessel, which would be a very expensive business; but let that vessel follow the whales, say, round the Cape of Good Hope, as they come across to South Georgia, as they pass to the north of the Shetlands, as they proceed round the Falklands and the Horn, and then along the west coast of Chile and the eastern coast of South America. We know they do all these things perfectly well.

No.

418. But the routes are not sufficiently defined P—

419. And you want to define them more closely Yes, and we should know a great deal more about the whale than at present if what I suggest were done.

420. So you have realised that the difficulty we are in is that we do not know where to protect the whale ? -Exactly. There is no object in one particular nation protecting whales unless the others are likewise prepared to work on the same lines. For instance, when the whales leave the Falklands they may possibly go to Chile; and if Chile is not protecting, and presuming that the crusta ea go to Chile, there is where the greatest number of whales will be found. We would all require to come into it in order to obtain the best results.

421. That brings me to the next point, which is this I have here a Colonial Office paper, and it deals with the Falkland Islands, amongst other places, and describing the policy of the Falkland Islands with regard to the issue of licensee it says: The present policy aims at (1) limiting the extent to which the "pursuit of whales may be carried on, and (2) reducing the amount of waste"-that is, insisting on the utili- sation of the whole carcase P-That is very important.

LL

422. But that point as to limiting the extent to which the pursuit of whales may be carried on, practi- cally means restricting licences, does it not, or restrict- ing the number of whales which can be taken ?--That will come as a natural consequence; if they (the licensees) have to use up the whole carcase of the whale they cannot possibly kill the same number of whales.

423. But you would agree that the restriction of the issue of licences in one locality is not really likely to be very effective ?—I do not think it can be.

424. Except, possibly, if your idea that the whales are frightened away holds good, that would affect the locality itself, but nothing else ?--Yes. Looking at it from a world point of view everybody must be pro- tecting on somewhat similar lines, otherwise the whale will be killed in very large quantities in that particular area or areas where they do not follow the same policy.

425. So you would agree that it is not much good having protection unless you can get general protec tion on some agreed lines? That is so.

428. Have you in fact found, so far as that require- ment that the whole of the carcase shall be used has been enforced, that it is effective P-It is effective to a certain point, but we are getting to extremely difficult conditions when we talk about the entire utilisation of the carcase; because, first of all, the vlimatic conditions in certain dependencies are such that it is almost im- possible to utilise, or to expect the licensees tontilise, the whole carcase of the whale. Take, for instance, for argument's sake, Graham's Land, that is an entirely ice-covered country.

427. Always ice-covered ?—Yes, and it is only feasible to go there perhaps six weeks in the year. A whaler

25 February 1914.]

Mr. WILLIAM LAMOND ALLARDYOE, C.M.G.

goes down there with considerable difficulty, he forces his way through some of the pack ice, and finally gets into a harbour. He sende-out his whalers, and they pick up quite a large number of whales, ten or twelve for argument's sake. Say that he suddenly finds himself with ten or twelve, common sense will dictate that, looking at it from the purely pecuniary point of view, what he must do is to get the blubber flensed off at once, put it into pans, and try it out. He does this. The carcases are there, but in the meantime out go the whalers again and pick up some more whales. The season is very short. He looks at it purely from the dividend point of view, the shareholders at home are looking for some return on their capital, and so he discard those other carcases and says: "I have not time to do anything with them; I have flensed off the blubber, and now there are more whales, and I "must make hay while the sun ahines."" His whalers bring in more whiles, and these carcases are discarded. 428. You mean you cannot enforce the regulation! -You could only do it by having an official on the apot who will say, "You must use up those caroasea

before you get any more."

+

44

429. And that is an expensive form of inspection ? The moment you do that the whaler says: "If I am not to do this I would rather not engage in whaling "at all; it is not good enough. I can only get profitable "results in a very abort season, such as there is in Graham's Land, by making the maximum amount of hay while the sun shines." And, therefore, it is extremely difficult to enforce any such regulation. I may explain that I have taken an extreme case, i... that of the whaler who proceeds far south where the season is short.

H

430. That difficulty would not apply to the same extent, at any rate, in South Georgia P-No.

431. Or in the Falkland Islands -The Falkland Islands you may discard from your consideration; they catch a few whales there, but that is neither here nor there; and, besides, they utilise all the whales they get there.

432. There are only five whalers-Yes, there is practically nothing done. Besides, they are only too glad to get the whales, and they are utilising the whole of the carcase. Of course, when you say "utilise," what do you mean exactly by that? Do you mean utilising everything, or do you mean that the tail, the head, the jawbone are to be taken and put into digesters? Is that to satisfy you, or what is to satisfy you? Do you mean to utilise the entire carcase of the whale, to work up the bones, i.e., to have machines capable of grinding up the bones and likewise work up all the belly fat, and so forth, and produce manure, or what do you mean by it!

433. That would be a question really that we should be putting to you, because we are speaking of your regulations. Just so. Right away south in Graham's Land it would be almost impossible; in fact, it would be unreasonable to expect or to demand that they should use the entire carcase of the whale and leave nothing. Even if they made guano down there the freight of guano from Graham's Land to Europe would probably be something like 61. a ton, and if they only got 71. a ton for it it would not be worth while to produce it. Therefore we could not expect them to work up the bones and offal and other things. We could reasonably expect them to work up anything producing oil, such as the tail, head, jawbone, and so forth; we could expect them to cut off those and put them into digesters and get the oil, but I do not think we could reasonably go further than that, so that there will undoubtedly be a considerable amount of waste of the whale in those extremely southern lati- tudes.

434. So that probably, although you might try to enforce a regulation of that kind in the interests of economy, in the interests of protection probably it would be more effective to put a limit on the number of whales which one whaler may take under his licence P---- That would be one way of doing it. I do not know that that would be at all pleasing to the whalers. think if we give them a licence we must take the risk of their being able to take under it whatever whales

I

[Continued.

they can catch, because some seasons they will be able to get a good number, and other seasons they will not.

435. You mean that you must balance one season against another ?—Yes.

436. And it would be very difficult to enforce ?—- You could only enforce it by having a man on the spot the whole time.

437. You would have to have a man on each ship? -You would have to, and at each factory.

498. One is driven back then, I think, to another line of polioy, which is simply to cut down the number of

licences P-You.

439. And that you are doing, I think, to some ex- tent P-We have restricted them; that is to say, we are not issuing any more.

440. The result of that will be, will it not, that as the existing licences die out, some being for shorter terma than others, you will tend to create a monopoly in favour of the people who have got the remaining licences --It would appear on the face of it as if it would work out in that way eventually. But licensees will not give up their licences as long as the industry payi.

441. But I am thinking of the ones which come to an end and which are not renewed—the short term ones. As

■ matter of fact I think most of yours are 21 years — No, most of them are annual. The eight companies at South Georgin have 21-year leases; the others are all annual, Therefore you would never get a monopoly really, because the worst came to the worst we could always draw in some more from the list of applicants whose applications for a whaling licence have been refused. If six retired you could say that two more could come in, and number of people are always anxious to get licences, so that I do not think, so far as the dependencies of South Shetlands and Graham's Land are concerned, it would affect the question; in fact, you could not raise a monopoly there.

442. The point I had in my mind was rather this: that at present you have got a very intense fishing going on, and you think there is a real danger to the general stook through this fishing, and your hope would be in restricting licences; that is to say, when they fell in you would issue no more P-That is so.

443. So you would gradually relieve the pressure ?---- Yes.

444. For that purpose to do anything effective I should imagine you would want to reduce ultimately the number of licences very considerably, and it would be then that your monopoly would arise ?—Yes, but wa could always break the monopoly again by introducing one or two others if we thought it desirable to do so.

445. If you thought the fishing would stand it ?-- Yes.

446. Another point (perhaps this is hardly a point which concerns you exactly) is that we know most of the companies fishing down in the south are Nor- wegian companies, and there are certain British com- panies very auxious to take a hand in the game who cannot get licences now ?-That is so.

447. Of course, there you would get the ory that we were keeping a close market for the Norwegian as against the Britisher ?—If that was really forced on us we should probably have to allow the Britisher to come in; licences in the future will probably he offered to the Britisher in preference to the foreigner.

448. If there are any future ones issued ?—Yes. As a matter of fact, the Britisher does not do nearly so well as the Norwegian.

449. You find the Norwegian is the man who had done beat P--He understands the business better.

450. (Mr. Baker.) I would like to ask this: what do you think the most promising line of procedure in endeavouring to protect the whales that are down in the Antarctic watera?-Reducing the, number of whale catchers.

451. By issuing no more licenses and granting no more lessee?--I would not grant any more leases, but in some cases we allow not only two but three whale catchers. When it is possible to eliminate the third I personally think it would be a good thing if we did so, It is not always possible because, as a matter of fact, we are bound by agreements and otherwise, and they may