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PUBLIC RECORD

OFFICE

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C.O.885

21 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

MEETING OF WEDNESDAY, MARCH 15тя, 1911.

Mr FRANK E. LEMON (Hon. Secretary to the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds).

Called in und Erumined.

(Mr. Lemon handed in a pamphlet entitled Answer to Feather Trade and State- ment by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds.")

Dr. HARMER: We are trying to get information on questions with reference to this matter of the protection of birds, and we should be glad if you would give us your opinion on certain points. Could you tell us, in the first place, whether you have much definite evidence in regard to cases in which legislative measures have been proved to have a good effect on the protection of birds?-A. First of all I think I might mention India, because, although there is a certain amount of smuggling going on there, I think the export law has proved to be very efficacious. It is quite true that it is disregarded now and again. Then I think possibly I might refer to Mr. Quelch's evidence with regard to Demerara, on page 54 of the book I have handed in, where he says: "Certainly, after the Government in Demerara had enforced the Ordinance for the protection of wild birds, forbidding their slaughter under a penalty of 24 dollars for each bird or part of a bird, no trader has found it worth his while to collect plumes in the harmless manner described by Mr. Laglaize.' I admit that some of them may be collected, but the question is whether they should be sent over. even in the various convenient localities where large heronries were situated." tioning as to the effect of a law.

That is on one part of the question you were men-

Q. It perhaps hardly answers the questions I wish to ask. These are cases in which the legislation is in the country of origin-A. That is so.

Q. With reference to the Bill which is at present before Parliament, it might be desirable to know whether there are any clear cases in which legislation with regard to importation has been proved specially effective?-A. I do not know that there is much law exactly on that line. It is to help the export law that we suggest-and America has suggested. and other nations I think that you should adopt the same principle, that is, to prevent import as well.

Q This is, in fact, so far as you know, the first experiment made of this particular kind?-A. I think that is so. The American laws are inter-State laws, and it is a little difficult for me to speak of them. They do there, I think, forbid a certain amount of import, or the goods have to be declared, and are liable to certain duties, which have to be paid, and so on. I think, to a large extent, it is a new form of legislation. I am afraid I cannot point to any successful Acts on that line at present.

CHAIRMAN: In any country?-A.

I think I am right in saying no. I cannot call to mind any. But as you know better than I do, the export law has At any rate, been in force in several of the Colonies, and the opinion that we hold is that such law prohibiting importation will strengthen-and very considerably strengthen— the law of export.

Q. Do you know how the law prohibiting export has been working. Is it enforced or evaded in most countries-A. I suppose, to some extent, both. There is no doubt that there is a certain amount of attempt to evade any law of that kind, and there is a great amount of transference from India-they transfer the goods in some way to some other country, and they come to England not from India. have definite instances of that.

We

Mr. OGILVIE-GRANT: Do the monal pheasants come in great numbers from India in spite of the law?-A. There were more, no doubt, some years ago; but the curious thing about that trade is that when the birds come over often they are renamed for the purposes of sale in the sale rooms. In many cases that is done, and it is difficult to trace them unless one actually examines them.

Q. You mean they are passed under several false names?-A. Yes, we have found that in many cases. I have had the advice and opinion on that point of one who has been down and examined various birds, and he has told me there are many birds consigned apparently for sale under fancy names. This has made it rather

difficult to trace whether any particular birds come over unless one constantly visits the sale rooms.

CHAIRMAN: You know the representatives of the feather trade assure us that

a very large proportion of the Osprey feathers imported into this country are really picked up?—A. I know they say so.

Q. Are you convinced that that is impossible because of the difficulty of finding where the moulted feathers are dropped, and cleaning them in sufficient quantities for the market?-A. Our evidence on that line is very direct. We have sent over to Venezuela and other places, and there is no doubt that within the last few years a proportion of the feathers are picked-up feathers. I cannot deny that. I think, speaking for the Society, our attitude has always been to recognise facts as they come along. There is a proportion of picked-up feathers.

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Dr. HARMER: Bearing on that I should like to call attention to two statements made by Mr. Downham in a book called the “ Feather Trade." On page 18 he says: It is not, and never has been, necessary, for trade purposes, to kill birds in their nesting season." The other statement is with regard to the trade in Egret feathers from Venezuela. He says, on page 29: "The opinion of those in the trade is that considerably more than two-thirds of the supply is so obtained," meaning moulted feathers. I should like to hear your opinion on those two statements?- A. With regard to the first, on page 18, I do not want to quibble about the word necessary ; if it were not necessary one would rather hope they do not do it; but the facts are that they are undoubtedly killed for the purpose, and, really, the evidence that we have is, that the plumes that would be of any value are not those that are picked up. Mr. Downham is increasing the proportion that comes as moulted plumes in his statements. At one time he told me personally that at one sale in the year they had a proportion of moulted plumes-that was at the time of the evidence before the Committee of the House of Lords. Since then I do not know whether there has been any change in the country, but his statements in England have been that the proportion has been increasing so that we hear it is something like two-thirds, or in one place I think he says 80 per cent.

Picked

up

and

Mr. READ: Page 45 of your pamphlet, the paragraph headed Picked out,

seems to bear that out. Yes. Mr. STUBBS: I see, in his evidence before the House of Lords Committee, Mr. Downham gave 80 or 90 per cent. of the feathers as moulted feathers!—A. It escaped me if he said that. I do not know whether he means in number or in value. Mr. OGILVIE-GRANT: Mr. Albert Pam absolutely denies that, and says it is absolutely untrue?-A. On page 48 he says: "If you wished to collect feathers you would have to walk several hundred yards for each individual plume you picked up, and in the jungle of the Amazon it would be an extremely difficult occupation. The idea of their being moulted feathers may be absolutely set aside." That is from his evidence before the House of Lords Committee also. He supplemented that recently, and we go on to say how he pointed out what an enormous number would have to be picked up, and the difficulty of getting about in the country-which he speaks of from experience, which, of course. I do not.

Mr. JOHNSON: Is that the evidence of Mr. Downham?-A. No, that is the evidence of Mr. Pam that I quoted, in the House of Lords, and he has supported that since.

Mr. OGILVIE-GRANT: I had a conversation two or three days ago with him on this matter. He has just come back from Venezuela, and he absolutely denies that it is possible to pick up any plumes, and he says the ground is so wet and swampy that any feathers found are absolutely spoilt and could only be used for the most inferior article --A. On page 49 Mr. Pam deals with the suggestion again about the moulted plumes, and about this enactment in Apuré, which I understand to be a mere nothing, and of no account.

•

CHAIRMAN: Of course, the counsel of perfection in this matter would be an inter- national agreement amongst all civilised countries in the world to prohibit the importation of scheduled feathers? A. Yes, steps towards that end have been taken in some way. The Foreign Office, I know, have communicated with other Governments, as I daresay you know. The attitude of international conferences has been such that there has been a very strong feeling to secure bird protection in the various countries where bird protection is needed. International Ornithological Conference in England, a chief feature of which— am sure it was so at the as also of the one held recently at Berlin-was the attitude taken towards bird protection.

It

Q. Putting aside an international agreement for one moment, short of that what ought we to do?-A. I do not consider, really, it is an English trade. is a trade which, to some extent, uses London as a mart, but I view it as a foreign

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