CO885-(20-21) — Page 611

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O.885

21 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

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Mr. GOODFELLOWw: They keep their plumes also for a considerable time, until there is a large price given for them in Europe, and that is why they send off their plumes that they have been using.

Mr. DUNSTALL: Yes, but they use them all the same.

Mr. JOSEPH Reverting to the blue bird, I would like to point out that this Bill is proposing to licence the trade in rare birds. What we have always pointed out is that we do not want rare birds, they are no use to the trade, but rare birds are wanted, it is the rare birds you want to protect, and it is the rare birds you are licensing the sale of.

Mr. DUNSTALL: We will help to protect the rare birds if necessary.

CHAIRMAN: I quite appreciate that there is that objection both to Sub-section (a) and Sub-section (h) of Clause 5 of the Bill (To Mr. Goodfellow.) Have you seen this proposal for prohibiting the importation of plumage?—A. No.

Q. Supposing we prohibited the importation of birds of paradise from British New Guinea to this country, do you believe it would have any appreciable effect on the destruction of birds of paradise in New Guinea A. Only in British New Guinea; if they can maintain sufficient precautions there that the skins are not exported from that district, of course it must tend to protect them, but it would not have any effect on the other species.

Q. Nor would it have any effect on the export from New Guinea to other countries than this?—A. (Mr. Dunstally: Exactly. (Mr. Goodfellow): I think a great deal rests on the Government out there to enforce their regulations more stringently than at present.

Mr. OGILVIE-GRANT: They are not enforced ?—A. No; for instance, in January, 1909. I was waiting at Cooktown to get over to Port Moresby, and a Government oficial, a Resident Magistrate from New Guinea arrived at Cooktown, and to my knowledge he had 300 skins of the Raggiana which he was taking down to Australia to pay for his excursion. He was a Government officer, and he brought these skins through surreptitiously and got them through to my knowledge. I was in the Custom House and saw the baggage passed, and he got them through by a subterfuge, and those eventually found their way to London; they paid for his excursion down south for his health. He was a Government officer, and I say that the Government there require to enforce their regulations more stringently when a Government official takes out that number of skins. I spoke to one of the Govern- ment officers, Mr. Champion, in Port Moresby, about it, and he asked me particularly to tell him who this man was, but I did not do that, as the man was a personal friend of mine, and it is for the Government to look after their own laws and see that they are enforced That was an isolated case that came to my knowledge, but there are probably others. I heard of others. (Mr. Dunstall): We do not get many Raggiana skins now, and have not for some time. (Mr. Goodfellow): You ought to get none at all considering that the shooting has been closed for two years.

CHAIRMAN: The Raggiana come from British New Guinea ?— A. Solely; it is a red-plumed bird.

Q. What about the genus Goura A. That is the Crowned Pigeon; they must be getting very scarce, and I know it is in most districts, it is such a very stupid bird; it is probably the easiest bird for anybody to shoot or snare or kill, almost with a stick: it a large, clumsy bird, and there has been a certain value set on the crest. (Mr. Joseph): But it is eaten, is it not, by the natives! (Mr. Good fellow) : Yes, it is eaten, so are the birds of paradise: the natives will eat anything, snakes, toads, lizards, or anything.

Q. The Crowned Pigeon looks as if it might be a very good meal--A. The meat is very dry; it is very white meat but very dry. (Mr. Dunstall): Do they not shoot them regularly for food! (Mr. Goodfellow): The natives or Europeans? (Mr. Dunstall): The natives. (Mr. Goodfellow): No, I cannot say that they do shoot them regularly for food; if a native came across them and could shoot them he would. It is a bird he could get very easily with his arrows. Having shot it, he would eat it. (Mr. Goodfellow): Yes, he would eat it, I have no (Mr. Dunstall) : doubt.

Q. Do the Crowned Pigeons come here in any quantity?-A. (Mr. Dunstall): Yes, in large quantities still (Mr. Joseph): The crests chiefly come and not the bodies.

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Q. And I suppose you gentlemen would say to Mr Goodfellow that if you prohibited the import of the crests of the Crowned Pigeon here, the Crowned Pigeon would still be killed in New Guinea and the crests would be used to a less advantageous purpose than you can use them for -A. Yes. (Mr. Goodfellow): I do not think so, so much; I think if there was heads the natives would not kill them in such quantities, because they would no price set on their not go off into the different districts to search for them as they now do. A Malay shooter will go out to one district in Dutch New Guinea (they come chiefly from the Moluccas) during the season when the birds of paradise are in plumage, that is one of the districts along the north coast. These shooters are Malays and Aboriginal natives, and they will get together about eight or nine or more natives to go with them away into the interior. They will scour all the districts, and if there was no price on the Crowned Pigeons' heads these natives would not go off in that way, and the man who leads the expedition could not afford to engage these natives. He is getting a crown, probably, for each of the Crowned Pigeons' heads, that is for the Victoria Crowned Pigeon. (Mr. Dunstall): They are not worth that here, besides nearly all the Crowned Pigeons are shipped to Amsterdam; they do not come here direct. (Mr. Goodfellow): I do not know where they go to; I am only speaking of the shooting of them. If there was not a price put on their heads that man could not afford to take the natives through the districts they go to now. (Mr. Joseph): We do not deny that there are a great number killed for millinery purposes. (Mr. Goodfellow) : The natives do not travel about much to the shooting districts unless they are under the protection of a man with a gun, such as a Malay; they will go into the other districts then, because, probably, having a gun, he will supply them with food; he is a man who can shoot pigeons, and they will get the bodies of the paradise birds or anything, and therefore they travel through districts which otherwise they would never visit at all for shooting the birds.

Q. It seems to me, at any rate so far as New Guinea is concerned, that it is a very complicated question. First of all, let us assume that the local Government does not carry out very strictly its own protecting laws; even if you prohibited the export, the local Government that does not carry out its own protecting laws would be lax in preventing the export of birds from that country; so that first of all you may say the bird is being destroyed for domestic purposes, it is being eaten and worn by the natives, and therefore nothing we can do in this country can stop it. Then you could go on to say: But which is due to exportation.”—A. That refers to the native portion.

you can stop that portion of the destruction

Q. If you stop the exportation, it is alleged that you will still have a consider able incentive and a greater incentive if the price goes up and the birds get more difficult to export-the incentive to smuggle; and even if you prohibited smuggling, and successfully prohibited smuggling and prevented export into this country, there would still be the export to Amsterdam and other places on the Continent?— A. (Mr. Dunstall): Absolutely. (Mr. Joseph): That is a very fair summary of the case.

Q. That is the argument which has been put to us by these gentlemen this morning.-A. (Mr. Dunstall): Come and see the facts for yourselves; do not take our statements merely. (Mr. Joseph): It has struck us all the way through that the best way out of the whole question would have been an agreement with the trade in the first instance, instead of attacking the trade.

Q. I do not know whether that is a correct description of the attitude adopted by Lord Avebury and Mr. Alden, but we are not attacking the trade.-A. No, I am speaking of this agitation which has caused this Conference. I must say we are quite satisfied that we are getting a good hearing in this matter.

CHAIRMAN: I should like to leave open the question of another meeting until we have digested all the information you have given us this morning, and I should like to adjourn now because I must get to the House of Commons.

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The witnesses withdrew,

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