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Mr. Notley said that the natives were not allowed to hawk beer.

Mr. Hill said that the natives were not prosecuted on that point. They were prosecuted under the vagrancy law.

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His Excellency could not understand why the Court did not take notice of

the other matter.

Mr. Notley said it was rather difficult to prove that the natives were selling, It had to be proved that they were attempting to sell or even attempting to sell. or did actually sell.

His Excellency said that he would like justices of the peace to deal with these cases. He particularly wanted the deputation's opinion upon the vagrancy law. He wondered how many of them ever read the Vagrancy Act or the Trespass Act. He was trying to get a small manual prepared for justices of the peace, showing what they could and what they could not do.

In reply to a question by Mr. Anderson as to whether His Excellency wished them to move elsewhere with regard to vagrancy, His Excellency said that he did not think he would ask for resolutions. He would ask them for their opinions generally The vagrancy and trespass laws should be made more stringent, and they would in any case put the onus of proof upon the man, and in the case of thefts it would seem desirable to consider an enclosure on the same lines as a hut.

Dr. Atkinson referred to natives sleeping on farms at night. He meant in temporary huts put up on the borders of the farms.

His Excellency said that he understood that if there was to be any change in the law Government must appeal to precedent. They could not go in for innova- tions; but where they had got precedents he would wish to establish these pre- cedents as well as he could. Of course, a great many thefts were committed at night. He thought it would strengthen their position very much, more especially if justices of the peace could be given power to deal with the cases.

Mr. Tarlton thought the difficulty with the present Vagrancy Act was its interpretation. Mr. Hill had said it was working satisfactorily in his district. He thought they could not get sufficient evidence to prove vagrancy, even though the boy pleaded guilty.

Mr. Watkins referred to the constant changing of magistrates, and to some of the decisions given by them, which, he said, were unaccountable to an ordinary individual. He thought it should be arranged that magistrates should remain in the district.

His. Excellency said that he took it they were all agreed that it was desirable to consider changes in the Vagrancy and Trespass Acts-to make them more stringent within fenced enclosures and what could be considered to come within the term fenced enclosure."

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Mr. Tarlton asked if a natural boundary could be considered a fenced enclosure It would be a fence as far as the stock was -a natural barrier, say a river. concerned.

could not be considered a His Excellency assumed that if a river was dry barrier.

Mr. Young considered that if stock could not go across it would be a fence. Mr. Tarlton asked whether, if he did not consider it necessary to fence it, it would be a fence within the meaning of the law with regard to a native crossing, or would it be necessary to double-fence such a natural barrier?

Mr. Young replied that if cattle could get across it, it would not be a fence. Dr. Atkinson said the object was to indicate the limits of private property so every boy might know when he was on private land and when he was not.

His Excellency enquired whether a natural barrier was not a sufficient indica- tion.

Dr. Atkinson replied that unless the fence was strong enough to keep in stock, it was not a fence within the meaning of the law.

Mr. Young was of opinion that a deep ravine where stock could not cross would be considered an enclosure.

Remedial and Preventive Measures: (1) The Pass Law.-His Excellency, refer- ring to the Pass Law as a remedial measure, said he would like to hear any remarks. He had explained it as far as he could, and he thought Mr. Notley would be able to give them further information as to whether the Pass Law could be administered here except at great expenditure. In writing to him (His Excellency) some farmers If all sheep and cattle that were lost were fully had suggested compensation. compensated for, it meant far less expenditure than effective working of a pass

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law. He thought that by co-operation, having the Trespass and Vagrancy Acts enlarged, and giving justices of the peace an opportunity of dealing with trespass and vagrancy so that farmers would not have to go such long distances for magis- trates, they would have a great deal off their hands.

Mr. Watkins said, with reference to the Pass Law, that he thought it was a fact, as His Excellency had explained, that the expense would be very great indeed. He thought the enforcing of the Pass Law would have a very good effect in putting down crime. He also felt that if they had proper police patrols it would have a good effect in putting down crime, and, after all, that should be the object of Government. Stock thefts were very difficult to trace as there was an enormous native population, and he thought it would prove to be a very much simpler and better plan than many people imagined. He did not think that the Pass Law would have the effect of interfering with and disorganising labour. He was speaking for himself: it was simply his own opinion.

His Excellency presumed that farmers in early days had to put up with a great deal more thieving than nowadays. The proportion of thefts here was not great. They were rather inclined to judge of their country as compared with an old one like South Africa. They knew how long the Pass Law had been in force in South Africa-it was of comparatively modern introduction. He did not say it was not a duty of Government to spend money, but they must spend it as wisely as they could. It would require a very great expenditure of money to properly administer a Pass Law and he thought they would all agree that ineffective measures were worse than nothing. A Pass Law which would probably cost £8,000 to £10,000 a year was beyond the financial possibilities of a new country.

Mr. Anderson did not think that sum would be near the mark. He thought it would more likely be £50,000. He would like to hear what Mr. Notley thought of the Pass Law as a means of putting down crime. His (Mr. Anderson's) view was that the Pass Law was quite impossible in the present state of our finances.

His Excellency pointed out that, with regard to South Africa, he was quite certain that, if the Pass Law was abolished the next day there would not be any decrease in police. Ile asked what would happen if passes had to be issued to the Kavirondos and other lake tribes. They were dealing largely with the Highlands,

That would be the difficulty. but they must deal with all or none.

Mr. Anderson suggested as a temporary experiment that every native passing into or out of a district should have a pass.

His Excellency said that this would be one of the most difficult matters to deal with, seeing there were so many natives on farms.

question

Mr. Notley said he thought the Pass Law would assist, but it was

of issuing passes, which meant that they would require to have pass stations or issuing offices all round the boundaries of the districts-on practically every known road. They must give reasonable facilities or not apply the law.

Mr. Anderson thought that settlers might issue passes.

His Excellency was in favour of co-operation. It must be a system, and if it came to a Pass Law it must be effective.

Mr. Anderson suggested whether it could not be made effective in one district, or at least tried.

His Excellency pointed out that if a native went to a settler to get a pass he might say he was from Karuri's or Wamboga's. How was the settler to verify

this?

Dr. Atkinson considered that the Pass Law was useless.

He was sure the labour

supply would be interfered with, and was perfectly satisfied that it would mean no labour at all.

His Excellency, in reply to Mr. Hopcraft, said that if a native came on to a farm with a chit from a neighbour it ought to be sufficient evidence of good intention.

Mr. Cameron mentioned that cattle-stealing had been very prevalent in his district. Within the last three months 18 cattle had been stolen in the Lumbwa The members of district, and out of that number only one had been recovered.

the Lumbwa Pastoralists Association would like collective punishment applied to the natives in the Lumbwa district if the thefts were traced to their country. In a district where a lot of thieving was taking place he thought the chief's pay should be kept in abeyance until such time as something could he found out in reference to the thefts.

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