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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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LTC.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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116

17 July 18,

CROWN AGENTS ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Sir H. F. WILSON, K.C.M.G.

2112. (Mr. Harris.) Was there any oral discontent evidenced as regards buying through the Crown Agents-No. 1 do not remember any specific case of

that.

2413. But you took measures to buy books, and so forth, to prevent any suggestion of neglect of the local talent do not think that was really the reason; the Education Department felt there were certain special advantages in being able to get their books more immediately.

2414, (Sir Afleet Spiere. And were they not a class of books produced in South Africa ?– No.

2115. Not at all?—No, there are very few books pro- duced there.

2416, Mr. Gibson.) It is rather outside your own special province, but are you aware that in connection. with the Army in South Africa, it was found advis able, on Lord Selbourne's recommendation, to encour age the local farmers by ordering that a certain pro- portion of the forage for the Army should be besight focally-Yes. I remember that well.

2117. There would have been considerae discon tent, or there was discontent in the case of the farNICIS at the idea of the whole of the produce being im ported ?-- Quite se.

2118. Although the leal prices may have been some- what higher Yes,

2119, of bait natu:). Before you went to South Africa hail you any previous expeřictice of Government 1 partments!-Ko,

2120. You were not in the Civil Service before:— I was in the Colonial lice here. Lat I was in the Legal Department, and I did not come into contact with the work of the Crown Agents.

.

2121. We gather from your previous exulence that you think it highly, desirable that a colony should have some good agents' Certainly.

2122.-Does it strike you as a goal or a bad plan that there should be this «mi-independent toxiy," most in any way a part of the Civil Service except in eer tain aspects of the higher branches have never given, the subject any special consideration; I found the Crown Aguts existing, and regarded them as part of the establishesl order of things.

2123. And when you had to deal with them things went fairly well?-Sp.aking now of my Colonial ex- perience. I should say that things not only went fairly well, but on the whole, very well inlash. believe there was a despatch written from the Orange River Colony in the year 190d which gave some in- pression of discuti-faction, but that was written by The present Governor in the previous experience he had had els-where, and 1 think he distinctly states at the beginning of that letter that he does not refer to anything that had happened in the Change River Colony, because, of course, by that time nothing had happened.

2121, (Sit Frauris Mesvall.) Tave there been heal complaints, not from the Departments manerned, but by the general publie, of delay or failure in vilicteny of supplies by the Crown Agents, in the local Press, and so on --No, I do not remember anything of the kind. I understatel, if I may make thus remark. that sine I left the Colony a tel gram or despatch has been nouvel from the new Government thanking the Crown Agents very much for the work they have done. That and expressing their full appreciation of it. was on the devasion of the appointment of their suc cessor, the new Agent General, whe I understand will now take ever their duties,

2425. (Chalonman) Of course, they have appointed an Agent-General Yes, and I should also like to say, as regards the railway work of the Colony with which I have had to do ever since I have been there as a member of the Joint Committee, that the Crowi Agents have given us great assistance, especially in connection with the Bloemfontein- Kimberley line, by advancing the money in anticipation of the raising of the loan of £100,000 authorised by the Legislature, They have lent that money to us at the ordinary Bank

rate, and without charging anything whatever für their service in doing so. I believe that has also received an appreciative acknowledgment from the Government of the Colony,

2426. (Mr. Harris.) 1 understand you to say that they are financing in anticipation of the loan ?--Yes.

2127. Will the Crown Agents issue that loan, do you suppose!--I presume if the othee of the new Agent-tieneral is completely established by the time that loan is raised, he will ruse it. but I really do not know exactly. They will then have to be re- pand, of course.

2428. They will be repaid, but will they lose "il the commission for their trouble, do you think? You say they have charged nothing for the advance —That

Is

2120. But if they raise the loan there will be the commission on-the loan which might be presumed to repay them to solile extent? I imagine it would do so, 2130, 1 magine they will get something out of it eventually Up to the present moment they have got

morning.

2131, (Sir Ralph Moor.) It is only an advance pending the issue of the ban -- Yes, and I believe it is uncertain whether the loan will be for a larger amou.! than was originally anticipated, and therefore it has been hanging fire for some time. It may be a larger whe, tra include other works than the Bloemfontein- Kimberley line.

2132. (Mr. Gibson.) So far as your experience is concerned you had no meonventelice from the fact of the Crown Agents being semi-tuk pendent. Yon found no delay or circumlocution you have not hail to go through the Coloniat Office? That is so; we wrote direct to the Crown Agents mostly, but some of the correspondence about the loan went through the Serre- tary of State, by dispatelt or cablegram.

2133. And you have not had to suvoke the inter- vention of the Colonial Office? No, not as a rule.

2131. Perhaps it has not come before you, and you are not prepared to express an opinion as to whether you think it would be preferable to bring the 'rown Agents more closely mio association with the Colo ntal Office; in fact, to make them a buying branch of the Colonial Office. You have not had an opportunity of considering that ?--No.

2135. And you would not be prepared to express a view?—No, I really have no view in that.

2436, (Sir Ralph Mour,) With regard to the class of material that the frown gems have supplied you with during the seven years you had this experience. had you at any time any complaints?—As to the quality?

2437. Yes!-- The only occasion I remember when there was a considerable complaint, was with reference to the einss of prates they supplied to the Education Department.

2138, d'iurizm.) What was the trouble; were they out of tun? They were not suited to the climate, and gave way very soon. They were apparently not of such durable materials as they should have been.

2139, (Mr. Gilmon.) Had the local authorities given them any special suscituration or design?—Yes. I think we told them pretty well what we required. but they dealt with a firm they had not previously leal with, and on that occasion the results were not su satisfactory. They fully admitted that, and did their best to take it up.

I rather believe

2110, Mr. Harris i In what way? they supplied some additional instruments, but I cannot be quite certain about that, it is a longish time age three or four years ago,

2441. Was there any transaction which amouṇted to a penalty on the Crown Agents 2-No.

2442. Or compensation on their part 1-No, I do not think there was.

+

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir II. F. WILSON, K.C.M.G.

2443. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) The additional pianos must have been supplied by the firm who contracted? It was either that or there was some reduction mule I think on the next under-something of that kind. the Colony got some satisfaction out of it.

2444. (Chairman.) I suppose in the case of the Orange River Colony there are so few industries of any kind that the natural friction that must arise between the local people and the Crown Agents when there are large anders given which the local people might carry out. does not arise at all?---No, because there are no people capable of supplying some of the things we

inder.

2445. So that there is no such cause for friction in the case of the Grange River Colony-No, it could only arise with large local merchants, and there are ory a few firms of that kind.

2446. In what line of goals? They are usually general merchants, such firms as Fichardts at Bloei- fontein, a very old-established business.

2447. Were they capable of supplying the goods which you ordered through the Crown Agents?—Not at the beginning of our time.

2418. But towards the close? Towards the close they probably could have supplied us very satisfac. torily with certain lines of goods.

2119. They could or did? ---They con'd have done. 2150. But the things, in point of fact, came through the frown Agents? Yes.

2451. Were there any protests? I never heard of ally.

2152. The whole business community was just be cinning to be built up? Yes, but it had been practi- city restored for the last three years,

2453. There is one point which interests me very much, and which I think will interest the Committe also. So far as you know from what has happenes]. now that the Colony has become self-governing, will they order more or less of their goods from here?— That is a matter for them to say; I do not know at all. I have heard from the Crown Agents indirectly that the orders have not been very large since the change. They have had no great võlunu of business to do.

1

117

[17 July 1908.

2454. But they are not still dealing with the Crown Agents, are they -To some extent, I think; I gather that there was a despatch written by Sir Hamilton Goold Adamus, in which he requested that they might gon acting even after the change of Government for time, but now the Colony's own agent is appointed assume that will cease.

2455, (Sir Francis Mowatt,) Is it not contemplated by the Government that future purchases shall be made through their own Agent-General?-Certainly.

2456. And it is too soon, perhaps, to say whether the Agent-General will purchase a larger or smaller proportion of the goods required in this country, and smaller or larger locally Yes, I suppose that is a matter for him to decide when he takes over; 1 do not know what he will do about that.

2157. Is the connection between the several South African Colonies sufficiently intimate to enable manu. facturers or merchants in Cape Colony, for instance, to tender satisfactorily for Orange River Colony re- quirements?They might, I suppose, in some direc- tions, but I do not think they could possibly do so in anything like all.

2458. Then is no local feeling in their favour? Would the people in the Orange River Colony prefer that, or base complaints on the fact that stores were supplied from here when there were competent South African firms at the Cape?-I should think that criti- cism might be made in larger communities than ours, but in our own case it is such a small community and so largely consisting of farmers who really know little or nothing about the purchasing of these goods, that Ilo not think it would arise there.

2159), (Chairman.) Is there anything else you would like to say to us? One thing I would like to say is that any complaints we have had to make in the corre

lence un different matters we have had with the Crown Agents have always been very thoroughly and fully considered by them to the best of my recollection. They have gone into these matters of complaint very carefully and done their best to satisfy any reasonable objections. That has certainly brought itself home

to me in the course of my correspondence with them- tha their work is very thoroughly done and that any matters brought to their notice are gone into car fully and well. That is my deliberate opinion.

The witness with drew.

Me. F. W. Bixos, (*.B, edilet umi esamined.

2160, (Chairman) We understanai you are the Di

Yes. pector of Contracts at the Admiralty?

2101. For how long have you h bị that position ? » 1 have been a little over two years in the Contract Filter, and prior to that 1 was Director of Stores, which is a kindred office in the Admiraity, for three years. Altogether I have had about 20 years experi- etive cotmetel with Government stores, either buying them or storing them and looking after them in

Various ways.

2162. Could you tell us the nature of your work, the kaod of things your office does, and the scope of your responsibility?” My business now as buying on the respinsition of what we call the Supply Departments of the Almiralty, that is to say. I revive requisitiuas fran the Director of Naval Stores fær materials wautes for shipbuilding, for all the coals that are regal for the Fleet, for all the rope, canvas, oils, Pettits, boats, Bags, and everything of that nature. Ten, from the Director of Victualling, for all pro- Vestas for the Fleet, and the clothing of the seamen, wal from the Ordnance Department for all guns and

munition.

26. All that comes to you?--You, and also the Medicines for the hospitals, and general medical stores, and a few articles of clothing for the Royal Marines.

2464. (Mr. Gibson.) The main contracts excluded from your purview are for sipbuiding and works? - Yes, shipbuilding and engineering. The contracts for ships are made by another department of the Ad- uriralty; also contracts for docks, works and build- ings, and for the machinery for ships and dockyards. I do not teach those,

242 407iemon) What

the total amount, roughly, of your purchases. It varies very gratly from year to year, hat it is between £6,000,000 and £73,000 in an ordinary year.

J

2466. How do you place these orders? What is the mthod of prosedure Principally by tender, very lat ly from selected firms.

2467. Ever by open competition-Sometimes by advertisement; eg, our local provision contracts are advertisel. but in all the big lines where we are well known as buyers we work very largely from a st of selected firms.

216. Is that list a fixed list which you keep !--- Yes, latt is is open to constant expansion by spon tans applications and otherwise.

2089. What means do you take to see that the business community know that they can get on your list That list has been built up by advertisement, and would be extended in the same way whenever

necessary.