CO885-(18-19) — Page 710

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C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO

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24 J. 198,"

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

B. P. A. SwETTENHAM, K.C.M.G.

think, at any rate, it used to be the practice that one of the Crown Agents would see a man, if he was a

Some person of any importance, before he went out. times they do get good men. but I think they would do better if they sometimes did advertise. They send a man to be the head of

a printing estab lishment, for instance, and they probably go to De La Rue, or somebody who makes stamps for them; they do not go anywhere else, I do not think they ever advertise; I do not think they over put a motive in the paper to say that such and such a Colony wants suchi nnd such a man at such and such a privé.

933, (Mh. Harris) 1 think I must there. I am only saying I think.

that the Crown Agents dislike that position, and are not going to accept it, and that they are going to tell That the Colony what is best for them, aid to do it. is the very strong feeling that there is,

944. (Chairman.) Their attitude is to paternal?-- Yes, anul in every Crown Colony you will hear it said:

How is it that the moment a Colony which has been • a Crown Colony (Natal, for instance, comparatively recently). has a Government of its own, the first thing it does is to appornt its own agent, and that it never will have the Crown Agents by any chance!”

915. Could they have the Crown Agents? - Could

correct you they not?

935. As a matter of fact, there have been recent advertisements. Of what they have done recently I know nothing, and I hope you understand that 1am only speaking of the time when I was still in the Charriment service. I now nothing about what has kappenest since. If they have alters) all their methods, then, of course, what I say is, useless.

935, (M). Leather.) Up_to" what year does that come can speak up to 1994.

936. (Clairmont.) With regard to the exact disery. ance of instructions from Colonies by the Crown Agents you desire to say a word?-That as the corn- plaint which is generally made by the Colonies, that if the Crown Agents' name means anything at all it means that they are the agents in this country for the Colonies, that the Colonies give them orders, and that they should carry then out. The complaint of the Colonies is that they are not only agents hit than they are principals as well, because when you give them an onder they vary it; they say: "No, this is not goal for you and so we are going to send you something elow."

937. (Sir Francis Moratt.) Will you give us a con- crete case of that?

935 (Chairman.) When you ask for helmets they do not send you boots?- - No, "but if you ask them for a particular kind of store they say: "No, that is not a gomi kind of stove, we will send you another one which is much bejer." I think sometimes they may have better knowledge, I canuca tell, but you see whenever Bay are right the Volay says nothing; simmettimes they are wrong and then the Colony makes a great

fuss.

939 (Sir Fancis Mooraft.) Still, in a case like that. do they not say: "We recommend you to have this different article," and if you wrote back tu sự: “No, the peculiar circumstances here require the article we ask for," they would supply it, I suppose? Yes, but what they say is... ” We think that the article you ask for is ont of late" for will not suit you, or something like that), and therefore we have sent you something elsr."

not wait for the

940 (3r. Tenthes.) They d answer?-No.

911. (Mr. Gibson.) It is the case very often, particu- larly if the article for which you ask is out of date. that there would be great delay and difficulty in getting it, anul is it not therefore advisable in the interests of the long and in the interests of quik delivery that you should use standard articles or articles of a standard pattern ?---The standard pattern would be something that was recognised, would it not? 912. Certainly. -I am supposing that we have ordered something, and then you say that it has be Come out of date without the knowledge of the Colony-something newer and better has been intro- duced. I think myself, of course, that there it is to the advantage of the Colony perhaps, but still if they were even to telegraph: "What you ask for will not suit your purpose as it is very expensive" (or some- thug of that kind), and we recommnetal you soties thing else." nobody could say anything. but they do

not d that.

943. (Sir Francis Moratt.) That is att arrangement easily come to; no department could permanently ob jeet to do that? You see the feeling as between the Colony and the Crown Agents rather is that they ench want to show their superior position: the Colony SAYS "We pay, we give you the order, and we want you to do it," and in the Colonies there is a feeling

946, (Mr. Harris) No: I was going to ask you whether you are aware that when Cape Colony became a responsible Government its Governinent asked to be allowed to keep the Crown Agents, and was told by the Imperial Government that as the Imperial Govern nient was not responsible, and could not be respon- sible, for the ease of a responsible tiovernment Colony, the Crown Agents could not work for the Cape. You were not aware of that 7-No. I was not; that is rather a long time ago.

947. I wish to ask you whether you thought this claim of the Crown Agents, which you suggest to be 100 paternal, as our Chairman put it, g es back in good while, or whether it has grown of recent years?-1 think it has gone back a good while, and I have known a great many instances myself, although my experi- ence is all confined to one place. I have known many instances where the position has been this, that the Colony has made a complaint, that thự Crown Agents have repliest, that it has gone to the Colonial Secretary to be seitled, and there it is always decided in favour of the Crown Agents. That is the feeling, that it is no good to say anything because the Crown Agents wish the Colony to understand that they are a sort of de- partinent of the Colonial Office, and that therefore it is no "good to say anything. That is certainly the feeling in the Colonies, and I think it is very seldom that the Colonial Office has taken the side of a Colony as against the Crown Agents.

918. May I put a point there? As between the Crown Agents and the Colonial Office any animus on the part of a Colony is quite as much directed against Downing Street as against the Crown Agents Only because they are supposed to support the Crowit Agents.

919. (Chairman.) That is the end of the particular points you desired to put before us, nil we have listened to you with much interest, but, supposing you found yourself in a position to alter the system, ka. I will put it in another way this Committer as asked how far it 18 advisable to bring the Crown Agents' service more into harmony with the ordinary Civil Service, and if in all respects both as regards its staff and powers it were in the same position as department of the Colonial Office, do you think that would abate the drawbacks you have referred to muder these three heads? Do you think it would be an ad- vantage that that change should be made or not?—I should think not.

9. What would you do?-From the Colonial paint of view they would like the Crown Agents to have less

d with the Colonial lice, not more,

961 Tell us exactly how that would work but They would like the frown Agents simply to be people who would carry out their orders and do it as quickly as ever they rubd. That is the attitude of the Colony

waris them.

152. To do just what they are told and quickly ? Y.. beause they say "We pay," and they add-

Never mind if we make a mistake, it does not matter, we will pay for the mistake; everybody is always making mistakes; you tell us you prevent us making mistakes, baut if you make a very big mistake indeed we have no polpis against you at all." All the greatest complants are not with reference to the purchase of buttons; they are with reference to very Tag things which est a tremendous lot of mory. The Crown Agents go to their consulting enginers and a man is sent out to undertake a great work. The Colony is not asked whether they think he is a coin- jelent person at all, and they have no voire in the matter; he goes and spends perhaps hundreds of

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir F. A. SWETTENHAM, K.C.MM.

thousands of pounds, and then the whole thing per- haps collapses. You cannot get redress from anybody

all.

si, (Nis D'onurts Muuratt.) You would suggest, as I understand, that the Crown Agents should no longer

the Crown Agents of the Colonies, but that they shovatel botol onät agents? Yes, Agents for the Crown

Undola.

$51. (8 ritulpp. Money Who should generally con nish them, betiese enchi Colony could not have a general control -They would control their own office, i cours; nu Colony would wish to interfere with thar own internal organisation at all.

955. They would leave the control of their own office in their own hands?--Yes.

956. They would be purely arbitrary as regards their cwn establishment !· "As regards their own establish- ment do not think any Colony wishes to interfere with them the beast bit in the world.

937. Should there be no control over their establish- ment -No, 1 should say not as far as tho Colonies aro concerned; they simply pay, I think very little in- sil. for the services of the Crown Agents. I think the Colonies would be ready to pay more than they do pay. They pay very little, and they get a great deal for their money.

958. (Mr. Harris.) If you took away the control you might have your fees raised against you at once. What would be the remedy? Supposing the Crown Agats meant to rini 41 as is tremendously paying con- orn nad to take a regular large percentage out of the Colonies, what would be your remely 7-So long as it was done on a business footing, whatever any ordinary tem weathi aige for doing the saun work. I think the Crown Agents would be perfectly just fod in charg

g that.

950. (Mr. Bailey.) You see there are so many lo nies which employ them; there is a diversity of masters to to speak, and do you not think there must Le some suprenie controlling authority ?-But the Colo- nies are never in the position of being masters; all the Colonies ask for is to be treated as equals.

1964. The point is, as it seems to me, that there should be some one who should have the final word as between the Crown Agents and any particular Colony, or all the Colonies. Do you object to their being in sel at all under the Secretary of State as contre Hing authority! I personally should be in favour of that if the Secretary of State held the scales absolutely equal as between the Colony and the Crown Agents.

*

961. (Sir Ralph Moor.) In default of that you would prefer the Crown Agents to be a purely commercial agency responsible to the Colonies ?--Yes.

962. (Mr. Leathes.) A purely commercial agency. with whom the Colonies would have to deal?—Yes, if you like that is one of the points, of course, about which complaint is made-that the Colony is com- pelled to go to the Crown Agents to buy something which they could get much better without their as

sistance at all.

163. (Sir Francis Muwatt.) I must carry the ques- tion I asked you a little further. Not only do you pro- pose that they would cease to be Crown Agents, but that they would cease to be sole agents to any Colony that the Colony should go to the Crown Agents when they feel inclined and not go when they feel in- clined think in England they should be the sole agents,

164. I do not understand. If the Colonies wanted to construct a railroad, you say they could perhaps get the materials better from somebody else than the Crown Agents? They could perhaps get something better locally in their own Colony, and they are not allowed to.

963. If they wished to get it elsewhere than through the Crown Agents you would wish the Colonial people to do that 7-Yes.

966. You simply say they would cease to be the Colonial Agents, and would merely be personɛ to whom the Colony rould apply in any particular instance if they desired? They would be the only people who

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21 June 1908

were recognised as Colonial Agents, and they would be the only means of purchasing in this country.

967. A Colony might say: "We can get this better done by going to a Colonial tiru"; why should they not equally be able to say: "We can get it better dong by going to some other firm in England"-If you def thai then of course there would be an end of it alto- gether. That, 1 think, would be a mistake.

968. (Mr. Gibson.) The Colony might go to America, for instance-They would go to America; even ac- cording to what I suggest, they would still go to America, and they would still go to Germany.

969. The Colony world?—Yes, where the Colony found it could get an electric lighting apparatus better in America it would go there instead of being com- pelled, as they are now, to give the order to the Crown Agents, who go to their own electric lighting expert aid he gives advice.

970. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) That which you put for ward is obviously the converse proposition to Colonial proference.

971. ('hairman.) There is at present a very effective Colonial Preference under this system 7-Yes, I am sorry I could not find it, but I cut out of a newspaper two or three days ago something that had been quoted by a Straits paper out of a Ceylon paper; it will be found in the library at this office, because it is the last but one copy I think of the Singapore Free Press. It would have interested you very much; it is about a coluni in length, and consists of very serious com- plaint against the Crown Agents made by the people of Ceylon, with regard to which they quote chapter and verse, and state all kinds of things which they could have got in Ceylon for certain prices which have been supplied by the Crown Agents at other prices which were not so good for the Colony; and stating also what everybody knows, that they were not al lowed to buy in the Colony the things that they would get there, that they had to send to England for them to come back again.

972. You say that that system has created great dis- content-Yes, and I think it is a mistake. I think every Government should be able to buy locally what- ever it pleases, and if it finds it can get the things better and cheaper locally it should do so, but if it finds it is better to send to England, and very often it is, then they should tell the Crown Agents and get them through the Crown Agents and not through any- body else.

was of

973. I ought to say that we have had the opposite view expressed to us in that chair by another gentle- man who says it is an advantage (1 put this to you so that we may hear your views on the point), to have this rule because the pressure upon the local Govern- ment of the local people to lay the things which are not so good would be so great that they would get

The insinuen given to interior stuff. quinine, bought locally, and the statement was made that it was extraordinary how the effect of the quinine suddenly disappeared. You do not see any real ditli- culty in that, and you think that the Government might be trusted to take care of itself? I cannot understand anybody being able to put any pressure on the Government of a Crown Colony.

974. In practice all large onders in your experience must come to this country through the Crown Agents and be ordered by them?—Yes.

975. (Mr. Bailey.) I believe in the case of Singapore the cenient, for instance, required for all Government works, is ordered through the Crown Agents; do you happen to remember that ?—I think it is.

976. That used by the Municipality of Singapore is bought locally?—Yes, the Municipality do what they like..

977. And they are doing heavy engineering work? -Yes, I know there are two firms in Singapore who ideal largely in rement.

078, (Mr. Leatkes.) Is it made locally ?—No,

979. Dg your experience go to show that the inter- vention of the Crown Agents leads to unnecessary delay as a rule or frequently 7-Yes. You see their methods are what people in this country would call unbusiness- like that is to say, they do not go straight to the