CO885-(18-19) — Page 709

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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21 Zone 199a,”

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Sir F. A. SWETTENHAM, K.C.M.G.

railway in the Straits Settlements. 1 will describe a case which actually occurred. In Sugapore they wished to make a railway acris the isländ; it was approved by the Secretary of State, and the consulting engineers were immediately, being in the position of leaving to advise on the railway--

-8982. Which consulting enginers How did they come in--The consulting enginers of the Crown Agents. They then provided to appoint an engineer to carry out the construction. The Colony was not ashed anything about that; they appointed anybody they cheat them out to the Colony, and they pr veiled to constinct the railway. They did construct it almost, but at cast the Colony could not bear it ang longer, and there was such a füss made that the engi-

went away leaving it unfinished, and it was Fishel by the engineers of the Malay State Rail- way. The whole of that was done through the con sulting engineers, their man in Singapore reporting diretly to then everything that he was doing, and the Government of the Colony had no control" what- ever of any kind. All that the Colony could do was to pay the bill, and we always had to pay whae ver was defunded, although the original estimates were enoga Trashy exeredeti. They were exceed time after

and every time you had to go to the Council and say: "We have nothing what, ver to do with this wadau main dy ratside the control of any lly in the flony, but the gentleman who has been appointed by the esulting engineers in England says" ihat he more money, and ye have ger to vote

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$83. And they did -They were told from here that they had to.

81, (Mr. Harris.) They did not go to the Colonial Office on the matter-The Colonial Office almost in- variably supports the Crown Agents,

885. (Nir Francis Mowatt.) Will you just complete the story? You say that engineer went away, and some other enginer then proceeded to superintend? Who appointed the second engineer?-time or two of the works built by this first man collapsed; a bridge tumbed down and I think an embankment gave WAY, and everybody in the Colony became a critic of the rail- way, so that at last the man gut so tired of it all that, mainly through the representations of the Government. when it was nearly completed, he went away. The Malay States having already for twenty years been con- structing their own railways without any assistance whatever from the Crown Agents, sent a man down and completed it.

-mi, (t'hìn man.) But how was it that the Crown Agents came in the first time in the case of this rail- way and did not come in in the case of the other rail- ways built during the preceding twenty years ?......-Be- cause the Malay States is not a British Colony, and never has been, and therefore they have done more what they like.

887. If it was necessary for Singapore to go to the Crown Agents in the first instance, how did they man- age to evade the Crown Agents when they found the bridges tumbling down and got the Federated Malay States to do it for them?—I think at Inst at this endÏ. the Colonial Office, the Crown Agents and the consult- ing engineers got rather tired of the constant com- plaints that were made, and the man himself at last got so sick of it that he said he would like to go away, and that was the actual result.

988, (Sir Francis Mowatt.) But dul the Crown Agents appoint or approve of the second engineer ?— No, I do not think they did. The line took more than twice as long to construct as it ought to have done.. it cost about twice the original estimate, and it was beginning to look as if the line would never be finished, and in despair they all said, “All right, do it your own way," but there was very little left to be done.

A. But what about the parts that tumbled down? -That happened afterwards.

800. (Mfr. Gibson.) What was the date of this inci- dent you are telling us about 7-From 1900 to 1903.

891. The completion of this was later than the last Report dealing with the resolations of the Crown

Agents to the Colonies, dealt with by Mr. Chamber- lain?-1 was in Singapore at the time, and I repre sented to the Colonial Offico as plainly as I could what the facts were, but, as I say, they support the Crown Agents in these matters, and I was told this was what was called the recognised system. I pointed out that wo had been for twenty years very successfully con- structing railways in the Malay States by what was 1st calid tlo recognised system, but they said that did not matter-that we had been twenty years wrong. That was all,

802." (Chairman.) I am told that the Secretary of State for the time being took the view that in Singa- pore the local officials had not got experience of build- ing railways --I think that is true.

893. And that therefore they could not be allowed to he responsible for bulding them?--I think that is the case; I think there was not in the service of the Government in Singapore at that moment anybody capable of doing it, but surely it was just as easy for it is for the consulting. the Colony to appoint a man engineers. The difference is that the man having been appointed by the consulting engineers in this case had never previously been in the Colony or the East at all, and he knew nothing about the price of local labour, local materials, or anything to do with it. Consequently he was constantly making mistakes for which the Colony had to pay. because there is really no responsibility, and what seems so entirely wrong is that the consulting engineers are not only your advisers but they are really the constructors of the railway. They are advising on their own work all the time. That is what seems so wrong. They aro responsible yet they are your only technical advisers. That is a position that cannot be right.

894. (Mr. Harris.) Are you sure that they were con- →tructors ?—Yes.

895, 1 remember a good many cases of construction of railways. but my recollection is that always there has been a constructing firm apart from the consulting engineers.-This is a Departinental work, and I myself am strongly in favour of Departmental work when it is done by the Government with an engineer who is quite independent of the consulting engineers.

895u. I have had some little experience of the Colo- nial Office, and that is my conception of the usual sys-

tem.

I cannot help thinking that you are telling us of a system which was an anomaly ?—I have no doubt

about it.

806, (t'hairman.) I am told that the usual practico is that the resident engineer is looked upon as the servant of the local Government, and that all his re ports to the consulting engineers go through the Government. Was that the case with you?—As_to the engineer, no: as to the correspondence, yes, under flying seal they do.

897. But you could do nothing on it ?—If we are not supposed to be capable of constructing a railway we are clearly not expable of criticising it. In this ques- tion I was told if I did not like it why did I not go out and look at the work and say what was the matter with it. I said I did not pretend to be an engineer.

898. The only thing you were considered to be cap- able of was to pay for it?-That was all, and as re- gards that we were not allowed to raise a question at all. We were simply told that we had to pay the bill.

WIN

809. We understand this systern did not meet with your approval, and according to Mr. Harris it anomalous. What would you suggest in substitution for it where Colonies want to build a railway I sug gest a system which has been followed in the Malay States with great success.

100. What is that? Suppose that a Colony wants to build a railway -The Government appointed its own railway engineers,

901. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) The local Government? -Yes, it appointed its own engineers just as it would appoint its own doctor and its own public works man. 902. (('hairman.) Then they would proceed to ad- vertise for tenders for locomotives, and the Crown Agents would not come in at all? Yes. Some of the

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir F. A. BwETTENHAM, K.C.M.G.

work at first was done through contracton, but wo found it was not satisfactory, and eventually it has all been done by the Government departmentally, small sub-contracts being given out, but the whole of the work being done under the control of the Govern- ment instead of by contractors.

neers,

003, (Sir Halph Moor.) But you had a consulting engineer?-They were the very same consulting engi

We had no voice in that matter. 1901. But you had your own working staff?—We were not allowed to choose our own consulting engineers.

not al- 05. In the Malay States?-Yes, we were inwedd to eloose our own consulting engineers.

906. (Chairman.) Who chose them for you?—The Clonial Office or the Crown Agents.

99072 (886) Fratrces Mawalt.) I thank the question asked by the Chairman was: What was the system you would approve of !~~That is it.

908. I understand you would approve of consulting engineers chosen by the Colony?—Yes.

900. We were not talking at the moment of what really happened in that instance, but we were talking of what system you would recommend?-The system that was followed in the Malay States. I do not think it matters whether the Colonial Office or the Crown Aguts, or the Colony choose the consulting engineers; so long as they are people of reputation I do not think it matters in the least. All inean is that they ought to have nothing to do with the construction, and they aght set to have anything to do with the appoint- ment of the resident engineers who carry out the work, cept by requent.

910. (Chairman.) I quite see your point?-As we are talking about that. I might mention that, when the Malay States had been constructing railways on this plan for at least twelve years,, all of a sudden, without sking us anything at all, an engineer was sent out from England to go and inspect, all the lines and maku a report to the consulting engineers for the benefit of the Crown Agents. We never asked for him; would have supplied the whole of the information that it took him a long time to acquire, but to our great surprise at the end we were told to pay the bill.

We

911. (Mr. Harris.) Are you certain that in your absence somebody did not ask for him?-Absolutely positive.

12. It seems to me an extraordinary thing happen. I am positive about it.

to

13. I did not know that the Colonial Oflice had a double life nm absolutely positive and there is

no question about it, because I said something alou tlunking it was strange that we should be asked to pay for this gentleman whom we had never asked for at all, as we could have supplied all the informa tion which it took him some time to acquire, and, of course, he has to come to us for it.

14. Do you remember who was Under-Secretary thenNo, I could not tell you.

915, (C) ai, man.) Had the Crown Agents anything to do with it? Yes.

916. They wont him out?-1 do not know whether it was the Crown Agents or the consulting engineers who ut him out, bur what they wrote was that the Crown Agents had suddenly asked the consulting engineers 24 a Report on the Malay States Railways, and in oler to obtain that the consulting engineers ap- jointed this man and sent him out, He only stayed in the place about six weeks; of course, he had to go to everybody for all the information he got, and then Write a Report, and we were told to pay for it. That is all that happened.

947. It has not happened again so far as you know i -No, we said something about it at the time.

91%. Wheat as your view about the investment of Colonial Funds? I cannot say anything myself about t. but I know that in the Council in the Straits There were one or two men who have a considerable reputation in the East as being good financiers, one of them. Sir George Murray, being the head of the Mercantile Bank in Singapore, who is regarded there, and I think generally in the East, as a very good authority, and they were constantly complaining in the Council and that is why I mention it, that funds

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[21 June 1908.

that had been sent to the Crown Agents for investtuent had an invested in securities that a wise man would not have chivseni.

919. These were public complaints by Sir Ghuge 31urray-s, and other undieral members of the Council. They complained of investments in certain Colonial securities, and said that it was not sound finance.

were th 920. (Mi. Lathes.) What funds balances ?--Yes, they were balances which now, I think, do not exist any longer, and they had depre- einted consulerably. I only mention that; I am not able to offer an opinion myself, but I know that Several representations were made at the instance of the other members of the Council, because they said that they would not have invested the funds of their banks or their own funds in such securities as the Crown Agents had chosen.

991. (Chairman.) That was when you were Gover- tar! Yes.

Weru those balances 922, (Mr. Baby.) What exactly: Were they balances belonging to Singapore L--`

- the Cotuny.

928. They were temporarily in the hands of the Crown Ag m?--Yes, the Colony then was very pro sperous and had considerable credit balances, and it was thought wise to always keep money in England, because we were constantly paying such large sums for things supplied by the Crown Agents, so that the money was remitted to them and they were told ta invent it.

924. (Mr. Harris.) As a matter of fact do you remember any marked loss?—That I cannot tell you.

925. (Chajruven.) You wished to tell as something as 1) the selection of officers to fill posts in the Colomes, You mean the selection by the Crown Agents. What officers does shit apply to?-They have been accus- tomed to select all The Beers of the Public Works Department. They have selected officers to become Juspectors of Mines in the Malay States. They have often helped in the selection of all sorts of junior people like station masters and locomotive nen.

926, Engine-Irivers - Engine-drivers. All that I would say about them is that there again I think their field is too limited. They seem to go to two of three people and say: "We want a man for such and such a job," and they send him somebody.

1127, (Mr. Harris.) But they constantly advertise, do they not '--I believe they never advertise; that is what they told me, 1 asked them once to advertisa for sanebody and they said: "No, you can do it if you like but we cannot."

918, (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Are these appointments made independently, or is it part of the recognised duty of the Crown Agents to appoint officers of this class in the Colonies?—It is recognised as one of the services which they render.

929. It is not nominally by the Colonial Office, and the Colonial Office then asks the Crown Agents to find a man; the Crown Agents, on the application

of the Colony, I suppose, finil a man-No, it is not exactly that.

9:9), (t'kaleman.) How

originate who applies for the man?-The Colony applies for so many engine-drivers.

Hop it

981. Applies to whom --To the Colonial Office, asking for these men at certain salaries to be engaged for a specified time on certain terms. The Colonial Office passes the papers to the Crown Agents, and they, I think. almost invariably go to one of their many consulting people, and then, in course of time, they say that they have appointed Mr. Jones, Mr. Brown, and Mr. Robinson, and they send you out their various agreements, and the men follow. That is what happens.

932. (Mr. Bailey.) But you do not object to this work being done through the Crown Agents?—Oh, dear no; of course, it is of the greatest assistance. All that I think is that they would do better by another method. They sometimes get good men, some. times very good, and sometimes rather indifferent; but then, of course, they personally do not know any- thing about them. I daresay they may see them; "I