CO885-(18-19) — Page 704

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference!

C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

38

22 June 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE :

Mr. H. W. Babook.

777. Can you tell me the difference between the rate for the million in October and the five millions in January-They could not be compared, for this reason--that the Bills which we issued in October were six months' Bills, and the loan issued in January If you issue Balls for six was permanent stock. months about April, you get them very cheap, because money as a rule is cheapest then. If these Bills have to be re-issued in October during the dear money period you have to pay more for them. Sometimes wo issue them for twelve months, and then we get the mean between the two. It is very difficult to compare the prices of these transactions,

778. (Chairman.) I just want to understand how your office would compare with the Crown Agents' Otice which we are investigating. Yours is the Accountant-tieneral's branch, and there is also a Public Works branch in the India Office, is there not? -- Yes.

779. And there is a Stores branch ?—Yes.

780. What else would there be! You have had some knowledge of what sort of work the Crown Agents do. What other Department do you think, which is not included in these three I have put to you, would be doing work which the Crown Agents have to do as far as you know ?—I should imagine that if you took most Departments of the India Office you would tind Bome counterpart to the work done in the Crown Agents' ice.

781. What other Department have you besides those three I mentioned?–We have the Financial Depart. ment, which is a very important one.

782. Other than your othee?--Yes.

763. What is that -The Financial Secretary is the representative of the Finance Committee of the India Council, and he and I are in daily consultation. because I hold the money in this country, and I make all the payments, He deals as well with all financial questions referred home from the Government of India for decision here That is a very important part of his work.

784. What other Department is there?—Then we have the Revenue and Statistics' Department; in fact, w have in the India Office a small counterpart of every public Department in In-lin.

185. (Mr. Harris.) Really, I think these Depart ments you are now mentioning are controlling depart. ments, and represent the Colonial Office, "not" the Crown Agents; they have their counterpari here?— That is possible; I do not know what the relations may be between the Colonial Office and the Crown Agents, but probably that is the case.

786. (Sir Ralph Mour.) In connection with the Public Works Department of India, have you any controlling department of the India ice? The whole business of the India Office is divided amongst com- mittees.composed of members of the Iulia Council, the Political Committee, the Revenue Committee, the Public Works Committee, the Stores Committee, the Finance Committes, and all proposals dealt with by committers other than the Finance Committee involv ing expenditure go, to the Finaure Committee. The recommendations of the various committees then go to the Council as a whole, over which the Secretary of State presides. The papers are placed before the various committees by the secretaries in the respective departments, and it is open to the members of the committees to call in and obtain the opinions of the experts who are attached to the India Office on all questions submitted to them.

787. But I meay with experts attached-engineers and that sort of thing? We have a consulting engineer to the Government of India. Sir Alexander Rendel, and he is consulted on all technical questions affecting the Stale railways. He is a permanent official of the India Office, and he has a large staff of inspectors- under him for the State railways. He

is alsù consulting engineer to many of the railway companies, and in that sense he is a part of their etablishments. but the Secretary of State's control of public works lies in this, that any estimates by a railway company or by the State railways in India comes to him for sanction; the Secretary of State sanctions the estimate before anything can be done at all, and a report of the progress of that work is sent bane month by month-and the work is controlled by the Public Works Department. I have, not anything to do with that; I have to receive money and pay money and account for it fo Parliament, prepare esti- mates, manage the balance, and so on; personally I have nothing to do with the technical work.

The witness with low.

Sir H. A. BLAK). G.C.M... called and examnat.

788. (('lairman.) The Committee are very grateful to you for coming to give evidence, and we hope it is not inconvenient to you. Have you prepared any par- ticular form of evidence! I have not; I have spoken to Mr. Harling, who tells me that you wish simply to know generally what my experience of the Crown Agents has been.

2

79. Yes, and then I will put to you a few questions we have drawn up here, which we think are the specific points which will help us. Can you, first of all, give us your general view as to how they do their work. well or badly, and how they got on with you. I know your distinguished career, but perhaps all the mem bers of the Committee do not know, and perhaps you could tell us, in your own way, what it has consisted of have been for almost twenty-five years Governor. I think for a longer term than anybody who has hitherto served the Empire, and I have known the Crown Agents during the greater part of that time.

790. In Jamaica and Hong Kong? In the Bahamas. Newfoundland, Jamaira, Hong Kong, and Ceylon, The first experience I personally bal with the Crown Agents was that I attended, just before I went to Jamaica, a nueting of the Colonial Offic to consuler The advisability of handing over the construction of the Jannies railway to an American syn·licate.

小

not know if you would like to have my opinion of Sir Montagu Umamanney, who was the Crown Agent at that time. I had on that occasion the financial views of the Crown Agents as to that operation. I only at tended for one day, and it seemed to me that the options put forward by Sir Montagn Omnianney were so palpably correct and in opposition to the islea of handing over the radway to the syndicate instead of making it ourselves, that I thought it advisable not to attend any more. 1 dad not know Jamaien at th time, but the late Govertior of Jamaica was present. the Attorney-General of Jamaica, and a representął ye of the Legislative Commeil. and they all appeared to be in favour of the construction of the railway by the American syndicate. It seemed to me that the tinan- cial views of Sir Montagu Omianney were very strong, so strongly against it that I entirely approved of his view, and I thought it advisable that I should not attend any further meetings, because I did not know Jamaien and I did not wish to be connected with it,

791. On that occasion you formed a very favourable view ?—I did of the financial ability of the then Crown Agent. Sir Montagu Ommanney. I may tell you generally that in my dealings with the Crown Agents. in my opinion, they have done their work, both Snán-

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir II. A. BLAKE, G,C.M.G.

cially and commercially, extremely well. I have taken a few notes merely of cases to refresh my memory, which probably the Committee might like to hear. In 1901, in Hong Kong, I forwarded a schedule of com- plaints in answer to an enquiry from the Colonial ice, and those complaints were generally either of delay or of careless packing, injury to goods in tran- sit. In all those enses, in my opinion, the explana. tions of the Crown Agents were entirely satisfactory I think the only case in which there was really any cause for serious complaint was in the case of diving dresses in which a different kind of diving dresses to those urdered was sent out, but it was pointed out that it was the mistake of the manufacturers, and they sent but the proper ones immediately. In 1002 I appointed Committee to report on the work of the Public Works Department in Hong Kong, Incidentally the Crown Agents came into that enquiry, and various statements were made with reference to them, and the Committee reported that in their opinion the Crown There were certain Agents' system was satisfactory. allegations of extravagance on the part of the Crown Agents. There were statements made that certain things that had been bought through the Crown Agents were more expensive than they would have been if they had been obtained through private contracts. Those things were thoroughly gone into, and it was clearly shown by the Crown Agents that those allega- In the various matters tions could not be sustained. the Crown Agents' business was thoroughly satisfac tely done. There is rather a curious incident that ecurred in reference to that, which I thought I would mention to the Committee. In 1905 there was a ques tion in Ceylon about the supply of quinine. I required a very large supply of quinine in Ceylon, as i had undertaken to distribute it largely for the purpose of checking malaria. It was stated that quinine could be suppliest cheaper than that supplied by the Crown Agents, and we made enquiries, and, to my mind, the Crown Agents very satisfactorily showed that good quinine could not be, and at the same time it was men- tinel by them. I think. as far as I remember, that there were varions qualities of quinine, and that any quinine got from them must be the best. They also Explained that quinine got in small sub-divided "quan- tities was naturally dearer by about 2d. an ounce than quinine got in bulk. Some time afterwards, as the distribution was very large, we found that we had run short of quinine, and perforce the quinine was obliged to be got through the local offer that was made before. What the value of the quinine was I am not prepared to say, but it is rather a significant coincidence that about three or four months afterwards two or three people, speaking to me about the experiment I was innking in the wide distribution of quinine to prevent malaria, mentioned that there must be something in the air or that there must be something in malaria that we do not understand, because quinine appeared to be Desing its effect. They knew nothing about this ques- ton. I do not know whether it had any effect; Tonly know it was rather a curious coincidence, and it came I thought through three or four parts of the island.

1 would mention that, because the fact remained that that was the quinine which was obtained locally, and not through the Crown Agents. I really cannot say whether that quinine was as good as the other or not. but I only know the facts as they came under my notice. In 1907 I reported on this matter of the Crown Agents as to their work, and, as far as my long expe- rience goes, I must say that their work has been extremely satisfactory, both in financing, and, as I say, in their commercial work. In Jamaica they financed us for a considerable time; instead of borrow- ing. putting our loan on the market, they financed us for a considerable time at 2 per cent, and saved the Colony a great deal of money.

79. (Sir Francis Muwatt.) I do not quite under- tand. Will you explain that? We had passed an ordinance for a lan of £100,000 or £200.000, or some Stall sum. The market at that time was not suitable and the Crown Agents financed us as we required it at per cent, on advances which they got from the London and Westminster Bank before they put our

ann the market.

793. Pending the loan?-Yes, pending the ban: they waited until a favourable moment on the mar

39

[22 June 1908.

ket arrivel, and in the meantime they supplied us with money at 2 per cent.

794. (C'hetis satu.) Is that all you have written down to tell us?-Yes, those were all the notes.

795. I would like now to ask you one or two ques tions. The first question you have answered-as to your experience-and your opinion as to the Crown Agents' Office working favourably, or the contrary, is that you say favourably -Distinctly favourably.

796. Now here is a point I do not know whether you have any knowledge of, but it is one of the things we have to inquire into; are you aware of any ground for the opinion which has been indicated in &rtain quarters that the Crown Agents enjoy almest a_romplete indiep idvace of control? That is one view of their office?Yes, that view is very largely held, and my own impression was that they did enjoy com siderable independence of control; 1 understood their

position to be one of practical independence, with a readiness to answer any complaints made through the Colomal Office and to explain at one- atl, in the event of the Colonial Office disagreeing with their view, to meet the views of the Colomal Ollie, That, 1 take it, is the generally received impression of the posirman of the Crown Agents,

707. That was your view of it-that they were inere og less melegenin - That in su.

29. The next question was -is 18 necessary in year jodgment for the successful working of the Crown Agents business that they should enjoy a peculiar measure of indepenience as they say they do, or should they have special and absolute control over their licial When you vote to a question as 10 their officials. I do not know exactly the position of their officials. I do not know if they appoint their oficial- or if you" appoint them.

709. At present the Crown Agent appoints them ?-- Can he dismiss any official?

42, Y., The Crown Agent can?—If he can dismiss his aliciais then I think the Crown Agent is in an independent position, but if the position is different ( do not know anything practically about thus, but the Committe. asked me the question), then the responsibility which the Crown Agents have in the eyes of the Colonies and which brings about these various complaints which are so freely made, will have to be taken upon the shoulders of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and instead of having these attacks made in the various legislatures on the Crown Agents, they will be made directly on the Secretary of State.

801. There are such attacks, of course, for various reasons?--Yes, they are inevitable when the action of the Crown Agents interferes with the possible giving of contracts locally.

02. There has btt a proposal that the staff of the Crown Agents should be brought more into line with the staff of the larger department in a Crown Clony? That is more or less the same question--are you going to take the responsibility, or is the Crown Agent?

89. (Sir Francis Moralt.) It is a mere change of whipping boy!—Yes. A question very often raised is the commission paid to the Crown Agents. As far as I understand the Crown Agent pays his own salaries, and I believe settles his own pensions for the staff; I am not sure, and 1 am now speaking like the man in the street, but it is palpable that if these salaries are too high and these pensions are too large, you are giving him too high a commission; you an laking from the Colonies more money than is neces- sary for the support of the stak.

801. The constitution of the staff of a large depart ment in a Crown Colony is as a rule subject to the final approval of the Secretary of State?-I believe it is so.

805. Do you see any objection to a similar arrange ment being made with regard to the Crown Agents I take that at present you do exercise considerable control as regards the appointment of men or more then von exercise with regard to the dismissal.