CO885-(18-19) — Page 689

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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15 June 18.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. H. B. Cox, C.B.

has been rather more liberaf in the pensions he has given to the Crown Agents and the Crown Agents" stat than would have been possible under Civil Serv vicc rules.

38. That is a personal advantage, but I mean as an administrative advantage. Du you think, for in- stance, that the staff is better for entering without examination and at the discretion of the appointing chief?—No, I do not think there is an advantage in that.

367. Is there any advantage, if he is under the con- frol of the Colonial Office, that he should not receivo his salary from the votes?-Sone.

38. Do you seo any objection to regulating the classification and the numbers of each class as in the case of the Civil Service?—No, no objection; I think the control of the Treasury in these matters on recog nisel principles is very advantageous,

389, (Mr. Harris.) When you speak about the con- trol of the Treasury, do you not father read into Sie Francis Mowatt's question a suggestion that the contnd should be transferred froni the Nurotary of State to the Treasury, and does not that import responsibility which the Treasury would rather object tu!—l assutinal, from Sir Francis putting this, that it was possible that the Treasury "might" be willing to take the responsibility you suggest.

3900. Assuming that the Crown Agents are servants of the Crown actually appointed by the Secretary of State representing the Gedonies, would not the real answer by the Chairman's question to you be this. that if the find suddenly was depleted, the Secretary of State could say to the Colonies, Hero is this Agents' staff for which we are all rsponsible; you must vote 50 much and make up the fund " ?—He could do so ertainly.

301. Is not that practically what dies emstantly happen in the Crown Colonies ?—Not with regard to the Crown Agents.

202. No, but supposing in a particular departmen there is a shortage and you want to adjust it, the Secretary of State gives the direction, does he not, that a particular vote should be put on the estimates ? -Y.

3:3. And there is no reason, therefore, why he should not use the same machinery in the case of the Crown Agents?— Fhe same machinery could no doubt be used, that is to say, the control of the Secretary of State could be invoked under those circumstances."

34. Directly on the Colonial Estimates?—Yes. 1955. (Chairman.) Would it not be better in your view if, instead of this arrangement by which this fund is sometimes increased to an enormous sum by the charging of commissions, the Secretary of State were to direct each Crown. Colony to place upon its estimates a suflicient sum to pay the staff of the Crown Agents as in the case of all other Civil servants --That would be possible, no doubt; I think either system would work equally well, Of course, floro always has been the idea, when the reserve fund reached a very large sum and was regarded as more than sufficient for any possible need, that the rate of commission for the Bjonies should be lowered, so that they would gain in that way..

3965, (Sic Ralph Mur.) May 1 take it that the com- mission is at such a low rate that in a year when the Crown Agents do not have to place any very big loans and so on they have to go on with money from that fund-They do.

397, (Chairman)) Mr. Harding informs me that thy have orensionally reduce the commissions chargeable-That is so.

394. It seems a very haphazard way of doing busi- ness however—The reserve fund is partly invest.d and partly n««l as a floating balance, just like a private firm, which in one year may make a large profit on its business and the next year may mako à deficit and use the one to balance the other.

The witness withdrew.

Mr. E. G. BURIS, C.S.I., called and examined.

399, (Chairman.) What is your official title/-- Director General of Stores at the India Ollice.

400. We are very glad to have you here to advise us very broadly, apart from detail, as to how the busi- ness is done in the India Office. What takes place from beginning to end in a transaction, bearing in mind that we want to compare it with what takes place in the case of the Crown Agents, into whee Department this Committee has been asked to inquire ? -As stated in the paper which your secretary was kind enough to send ine, our practice is almost the same as that of the Crown Agents.

41. Will you describe what happens. Take a con- crete case-We get demands from India, and they are submitted for the approval of the Secretary of State.

402. Let us take the case of builling a great bridge? —Yes, say that we have a demand för brödge work.

403, (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Demands from whom- from the governor of a province-It may be; it is either from the Government of India or the chief en- gineer who is duly authorised for the purpose, or from a local government.

not

104. But the demands you attend to are demands of individuals, or companies, or a district, but from some branch of the Indian Government administration ?—All demands emanate from the ad- ministration of the Government of India. We have nothing to do with municipal supplies, port trusts, or bodies of that kind throughout India.

405. Nor from a Rajah -No.

406, (Chairman.) Purely Government departments? Purely Government departments.

407. It so happens that is very much the biggest ordering unit in India 1 should imagine!—Certainly, far and away.

40%. Say that you get this demand for a bridge, what happens?—It is submitted to the Secretary of State for sanction, and during the time which it takes to get that sanction we get oft specikcations, and, if by any chance, the sanction were delayed, we invite tenders, but no order is placel until the Secretary of State has sanctionest the supply.

-4). How do you invite tentlers-That depends on the circumstances of the cam. For bridge work we know all the big bridge builders, and we do not adver- tise, but we invite the leading firms of bridge builders to tender. The tenders, when received, are considered, and I seek advice as to the acceptance of the tender most favourable to Government. It may be, and very fr quently is, that that is not the lowest femter. It depends upon the character of the firm and the quality of the material they are going to use.

410. Who advises you the people whom you em- ploy?—Either one of my own officers, or Sir Alexander Rendel, the consulting engineer to the Secretary of State, but he is only consulting engineer for State railways. Still, I avifit myself of his advice on occa- sions when I want to appeal to a higher authority than possibly one of my own officers.

411. Then the tender, having been ultimately acceptes, on the advice as you have explained, of course, they get to work, and is your part of the busi- ness then concludel?-Oh, no. I have a large staff of inspectors, and so has Sir Alexander Rendel.

412. (Sir Francis Munruff.) Before you go into that, is your approval of a tender or acceptance of a tender submitted for the approval of the Secretary of State? Certainly not it if is the lowest tender, of the lowest tender in accordance with the specification. If I pass over or wish to pass over the lowest tender for good and sufficient reasons. I have to submit the matter to the Secretary of State

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. E. G. BeRLs, C.8.1.

413, (Sir Ralph Moor.) You accept no responsibilty for the plan in any way--I am afraid all the responsibility is imposed upon me.

414. For the plan, as being a sound plan?-It depends. We griticise the Indian plans if they are dangerous, extravagant or uneconomical, you might

Bily.

115. If you wish to alter them do you alter them on your own authority or do you refer to the Secretary of State Variations in specifications are not submit- ted to the Secretary of State, we should either refer the specifications back to India, or we did not consider the modifications of sufficient importance we should make them ourselves, but now that the telegraph rates have been so much reduced we almost invariably telo. graph to Iulia in the event of anything like an important modification being made in a demand.

415. You see that the plans are efficient and sound? --Certainly.

417. And you take the entire responsibility for the specification?--Entirely.

418, (Chairman.) How is the stuff shippel-For bridgework we make contracts for delivery fo.b., and, of course, it depends upon where it is manufactured as to the port from which it should be shipped to India.

419. You make the arrangements for shipping?— The whole of them.

120. How do you do that; do you advertise!--We advertise in a sense; we do not advertise in the news- papers, but we post notices of our requirements at Glasgow, Liverpod, and London.

421. That you require so many tons of bridge wurk to be conveyed to such an I such a port ?--Yes.

429. At such and such freights?—No, they quote us the freight and then our function of criticismi cornes in. 423. You said you would tell us as to the divisions into which your department is divided?—The India Office Store Department has two branches, one at the India Office and one at the India Store Depôt in the Belvedere Road, Lambeth. At the India Office we deal with the examination of indents, with all correspondence in relation to them and with all con- tracts, whether for the purchase of stores or for freight, to India. At the India Store Depôt we deal purely with inspection, invoicing and shipment.

424. Another point was as to the general volume of business you do?—You speak of values. We have been averaging for the last three or four years about 4 millions sterling annually and our shipments amount to about 250,000 tons a year, taking weight and measurement together.

425, (Mr. Gibson.) Would you include your orders for armaments through the War Office?—Everything. 426. (Chairman.) It includes everything that is sent to the Government 7-Everything sent to India for Government use.

427. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Might I revert to the ques- tion of responsibility? You say you would accept responsibility for the plans of a bridge, I presume you submit them to your consulting engineers?— Certainly.

428. And your consulting engineers advise you, and therefore you say you accept entire responsibility 7—

Yes,

429. When that work is carried out and is ready for shipment, you inspect it ?—Yes.

1:30. You have it inspected-Yes.

431. By inspectors attached to your office or by your consulting engineer's inspectors-If it was a bridge for the Public Works Department in India my officers would inspect; if it was a bridge for a railway line then the consulting engineer or his officers would inspect.

42. Having had the inspection carried out, you directing who should do it, you accept entire responsi bility for that inspection and the report?--Yes,

433. And in the same way with the shipping; you do not employ outside shipping brokers --No, we have one of our own.

434. Attached to your odlice 7-He is employed by us on commission.

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(15 June 1998.

435. He can take other business?--Yes, he has other business.

436. He has a commercial office of his own? Yes, but I fancy that in our case the outside work he gets is comparatively small; the bulk of the work in for ludia.

137, (Mr. Gibs-n.) But you have not a Transport Department like thé Admiralty?—No.

438, (l'hairman,) Before we go on to the staff, which is a very interesting point we want to get from you, might ask how the thing works, in your judgment ? Of couree, you are naturally proud of your othice, and we all know it is very efficient, but, taking the method you adopt, which is, of course, so wholly different to that of the Crown Agents, in which they are in a sense independent of the Civil Service, does it, from your point of view, work well that you should be a strictly Government Department in the Civil Service --That question has been raised before, and I have considered it, and I think, unless conditions were very much varied, the department works as well as any ordinary commercial office.

There is prac tically no red tape; ever since I have been in charge, for 12 years. I have put my foot down on all ref tape, and beyond the fact that I have to get special sanction from the Secretary of State and from the Under-Secretary of State under certain conditions. I have no restrictions whatever, and I work really as if 1 were the head of a big private firm.

69. Of shippers and agents?—Yes, a big merchant firm.

440. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Is not red tape simply the regulations which the experience of the departiment has shown to be necessary for the eflicient conduer of business consider that red tape, apart from its offensive meaning, is absolutely essential in any w- |- ordereal ntlice, whether it is mercantile or Government.

111. And in that sense it is not entirely absent fron yours. 1 hope?-Certainly not, or else there would bo

no success.

412. (Chairman.) You purchase nothing for anybody except the Government, and I was not quite cortain whether the Crown Agents in the same way purchase nothing except for the Government—Mr. Harris, how- ever, thinks that is so?-1 think the two cases are very nearly parallel. It seems to me that paragraphs 6 and 7 of this Memorandum illustrate practically the work of my department; the Crown Agents buy two or three things we do not buy and we buy several they do not buy, but beyond that they buy exactly the same class of things throughout that we do.

113. Only one more question, which brings us on to the staff, which is the last point you have been good enough to say you can give us evidence upon. As you know, in the case of the Crown Agents they are not paid by the State at all, but a certain percentago is levied on their different transactions, and that creates a larger or sinaller reserve fund, and from that both the salaries and the pensions of the staff are paid. Supposing it were suggested that the same thing should be done in your office, which it quite easily could, would you view that with favour or disfavour? -Had the chance of the Crown Agents in dealing with loans I should say: "Give me the chance," but I have not. That is dealt with outside. The expenses of my department are and have been for the last few years roughly 1 per cent. on the value of the stores shipped. for 1900-6, the only year for which I have brought out any detail, the charges of the Store Department on the value of stores and the amount of their freight to India was 1573 per cent.

444. That is what it works out at, but out of what fund do the salaries como?-They are paid out of the revenues of the Government of India without any refer ence to purchases.

445. I do not think you quite understood the ques- tion I put to you. It would be possible of course for your office to be organised or to have been organised on the same basis as that of the Crown Agents by which the staff would depend on the amount of the purchases made and the percentage therefront obtained. Suppos ing that were suggested (it is perhaps a rather hypo- thetical question now) what would be your view and

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