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Fifteenth Day. 14 May 1907.

182.

be again, but the only alternative is to go to arbitration as to whether the statute law is in accordance with the Treaty which already exists. We shall raise very big questions if we go to arbitration. Canada has had the same NEWFOUNDLAND difficulties to deal with with regard to these fishing questions, and the matters are arranged by a modus vivendi between Canada and the United States which has avoided raising difficult questions. I should very much prefer to get a modus vivendi with the United States which would enable the Newfoundland question to go on in the same way.

FISHERY,

(Sir E. Grey.)

·

Sir ROBERT BOND: As I put it this morning, if the Americans remove the prohibitive duty on fish entering their markets we will permit them to ship crews to take bait on the Treaty Shore.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: They impose prohibitive customs duties,

Sir ROBERT BOND: Yes, and so long as that remains we shall not aid and abet them in injuring ourselves, because that is what it amounts to. It is a case of self-preservation. With regard to the rules and regulations, Canada makes rules and regulations; she enforces rules and regulations. If Canada makes and enforces rules and regulations, why should not New-

I think not. foundland do the same-should there be any distinction? cannot conceive how His Majesty's Government can take the position that it is right and proper for the Canadian Government to make rules and regulations which shall govern the fishery and that it is wrong for New- foundland to do so seeing that both have the same constitution.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: As you know, Sir Robert Bond, we have no difficulties with the Americans just now.

I

Sir ROBERT BOND): That is perfectly true, but it does not affect my reasoning,

What affects Sir WILFRID LAURIER: The principle is the same. you affects us just the same, as far as the principle is concerned. If our modus vivendi were removed we would have the same difliculty that you have

now.

Sir ROBERT BOND: And if I judge aright from the tone of the Canadian Parliament there is a feeling to-day that the modus vivendi should be done away with for the simple reason that the Americans are not acting as they should act.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: It is not a unanimous sentiment with us, though of late it has been growing.

Sir ROBERT BOND: With regard to Sunday fishing, if I mistake not, that is one of your fishery regulations and is enforced to-day in Canada against Americans and all others.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I think so.

Sir ROBERT BOND: Then if it is enforced against Americans in Canadian waters, upon what grounds can they object to its being enforced within Newfoundland waters.

Mr. DEAKIN : Do you favour arbitration, Sir Wilfrid ?

183

Fifteenth Day,

14 May 1907.

FISHERY.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I want to support Sir Robert Bond as far as I can, but I do not see anything to arbitrate upon, that is my trouble. For instance, is it anything to arbitrate upon that the Americans have a right to have a voice in our regulations? Take the Treaty as it is; we gave them NEWFOUNDLAND the right to fish in common with British fishermen. If under that, regulations are made, how can they have a voice in them? I cannot see anything to arbitrate upon. It seems to me this is one of the plenary powers dependent upon the right to legislate. Their right would commence the moment they allege this is an oppressive regulation made in fraud of our rights. Then it would be a violation of the Treaty. But unless they alone allege the regulations are in violation of the Treaty I cannot see anything to arbitrate

upon.

Mr. DEAKIN: I understood, Sir Edward Grey to say, that if you go to arbitration you must put the whole Treaty and its interpretation before the arbitrators, and you may find that their interpretation of that Treaty is very unsatisfactory.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I am glad to say that I believe we have a stronger case than the Americans.

Mr. DEAKIN : If neither Canada nor Newfoundland object to arbitration why not let it go to arbitration at once?

Sir EDWARD GREY: If that was so and their object was arbitration, I would propose it immediately. Still, you have this difficulty, that the Treaty says, "The liberty to take in common fish of every kind." I do not think if you went to arbitration on the whole Treaty the arbitrators would say that it was an unfair point to raise, that it should be submitted to them whether liberty to take fish in common included a right to be consulted about the regulations. The United States would say, and now do say, it is possible so to frame regulations that though they apply both to Newfoundland and the United States, they will press much more hardly on the United States than on Newfoundland fishermen. You can imagine such a thing as conceivable, and once they raise that point I do not think you could exclude the question of regulations from arbitration.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: That is so the moment they can allege that in point of fact the regulations have that effect; but I think they would have a right to a voice in the regulations because, hypothetically, the regulation may be against them or oppressive upon them. If Sir Robert Bond advises His Majesty's Government to refer the whole matter to arbitration, we would have to consider that, and I would not be prepared to take a decision on that to-day. We may have to consider it. For iny part, I say frankly and openly, I want to support Sir Robert Bond in this matter, because his interests are our interests; and if Sir Robert Bond comes to the conclusion that the better way of disposing of that vexed question is to refer it to arbitration, we would have to consider that, and I would communicate at once with our Government. Happily, we are in this position. We have no quarrels with the United States. The same Treaty applies to us as to Newfoundland, but we have a modus.vivendi with the Americans which makes away with all friction at this moment. If the modus vivendi were to be withdrawn we would have the same trouble as Sir Robert Bond has to-day.

Sir EDWARD GREY: As far as the position of the British Government is concerned, they would be very reluctant to propose arbitration, without being sure that that was a course which was not only acceptable, but felt to