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Fifteenth Day.

14 May 1907.

NEWFOUNDLAND FISHERY.

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our jurisdiction. Do they mean to contend for a moment that we have no. right to deal with such a case as that? Their declaration is to that effect. I think their position is quite untenable.

Sir EDWARD GREY: I have assumed all through that when they say (Sir R. Bond.) they are not bound by regulations passed without their consent, they are

referring merely to regulations connected with the fishing.

Sir ROBERT BOND: I am not referring now to the word " regula- tions." Mr. Root has said that the Newfoundland officers shall not interfere in any way with Americans in the prosecution of their industry.

Sir EDWARD GREY: I think if an American committed a crime against the ordinary law--theft, burglary, or murder---their contention would not apply.

Sir ROBERT BOND: Take our revenue laws; they have been defied and we have had many cases of smuggling.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: On the Treaty shore.

Sir ROBERT BOND: On the Treaty shore.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: And refuse to pay customs dues?

Sir ROBERT BOND: They refused to enter at Customs, consequently we had no check. Last year under the modus vivendi they consented to obey the law, having previously stated that they were not in any way amenable to our laws.

CHAIRMAN: How are we to proceed now? We have heard Sir Robert Bond's statement; I do not think we can proceed much further.

Sir ROBERT BOND: I would like to move the adoption of the resolution It is simply declaratory as to the views of this that I have submitted. Conference and as to what, in its opinion, should govern His Majesty's' Ministers in dealing with this question.

Sir EDWARD GREY: Of course, that leaves upon us the responsibility of saying how those views are to be enforced. The United States knows our views perfectly well, and we know their views, and the point we have arrived at now is that the mere reiteration of our views does not take us any further forward; and a resolution of this kind would be of no use whatever unless it contained some expression of opinion on the part of the Conference as to what procedure should be adopted. I could send this resolution at once to the United States and go to arbitration on the whole Treaty, but I think that. raises very awkward questions, and I think the resolution goes rather beyond even the terms of the Treaty as it stands.

Sir ROBERT BOND: I should not object in any way to a full submission of all questions at issue to arbitration, because I contend, and I think with much reason, that the Americans have no right whatever in the portions of the coast that they are now frequenting. The Treaty specially sets out that they shall not have any rights of fishing within the territory where they are now plying their trade, so that if there was a general submission to arbitration, I certainly would not object to it; on the contrary, I would court it.

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Mr. DEAKIN; What do you mean by a general submission?

Fifteenth Day.

14 May 1907.

FISHERY.

Sir RÓBERT BOND: All matters in dispute, not only the question of regulations that govern the fishery, but as to the rights of the Americans NEWFOUNDLAND to fish in the bays and harbours of St. George, Bay of Islands or Bonne Bay, I have raised that question in the Legislature.

Sir EDWARD GREY: Then the Treaty is one that affects Canada as well as Newfoundland, and before you embark on a large arbitration such as Sir Robert Bond says he would be prepared to accept, you have to consider that there are other interests besides those of Newfoundland which may be affected. I should very much prefer to get an arrangement with the United States which would avoid going to arbitration, because I am not confident of the strength of our case. The position of the United States is this: They say you have made certain regulations with regard to the carrying on of the fishery-no Sunday fishing--and we cannot use purse seines and things of that sort, and besides that you are prohibiting Newfoundlanders from engaging as crews on American vessels to help us in the fishery. The United States practically say "these two things together have made our right of common fishery valueless to us, we cannot carry on the fishery at all in "face of those things," and they contend that this is specially directed against them, because there is another quotation of Sir R. Bond's which they give, which is that one of the objects of this legislation is to bring the fishing interests of Gloucester to a realisation of their dependence upon the bait supply of this Colony.

Sir ROBERT BOND: I have already stated that that observation did not apply to the Treaty shore.

Sir EDWARD GREY: It includes the Treaty shore.

Sir ROBERT BOND: Certainly, but had special reference to other parts of the coasts of the Colony which Americans had been gratuitously permitted to resort to.

Sir EDWARD GREY: And they have taken all this to mean that the legislation is directed against them; and I think it is.

Sir ROBERT BOND: I do not deny that. A former Governor, Sir George Des Voeux, as far back as 1886, declared that in his despatch which I quoted to-day. We were dealing with nations who were discriminating against us. The Bait Act was aimed at the French because of their bounty system, and the Americans because of their prohibitive duties. That has been declared in despatches from the Governors from time to time, especially so by Sir George Des Voeux in 1887, when the Bait Act was under the consideration of His Majesty's Government.

Sir EDWARD GREY: I think we could get an arrangement with the United States in this way: If Newfoundland would allow Newfoundlanders to engage and serve voluntarily on United States vessels we might get the United States to accept or not dispute any regulations which were imposed with regard to the management of the fishery; but if Sir Robert Bond maintains that point that he cannot allow Newfoundlanders to engage, then I think it will be impossible to come to any arrangements with the United States by consent without discussing with them the regulations under which Of course,

if it comes to a question of the the fishery is to be carried on. statute law of Newfoundland, it is quite true that the statute law of Newfoundland was overridden by the modus vivendi of last year, and would

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