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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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18 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

Thirteenth Day. 8 May 1907.

NAVAL DEFENCE. (Dr. Smartt.)

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your statement, in allowing the volunteers in Cape Colony to know that on the passing of this Bill, this will come into effect.

Lord TWEEDMOUTH; Quite so.

Dr. SMARTT: I can assure you that that will be most satisfactory and will give a great filip to the Naval Volunteer movement in the Cape.

Lord TWEEDMOUTH: We think in the end that the vessel ought to be a Colonial one.

Dr. SMARTT: Yes. Further, I take it that the proposition the Admiralty make is that they would encourage the spirit of local defence and local assistance for naval purposes, and that the best direction in which that could take effect would be either in the direction of submarines, or I suppose the Admiralty would also be prepared to consider the question of destroyers.

Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Certainly.

Dr. SMARTT: I should take it that the submarine is a ship that only employs a small number of the most highly trained experts ?

Lord TWEEDMOUTH: That is so.

Dr. SMARTT: She is not a vessel that will go far out to sea, whereas, in the establishment of the destroyer class, you would at once imbue your people with the spirit of seamanship and the idea that they were rendering greater service, because they could go some little distance out to sea, and that would, be a great incentive to developing a naval spirit amongst our people.

Lord TWEEDMOUTH: I think the development of submarines is going to be such in the future as almost to supersede the destroyer; that it will have a much larger sea range, and it will be not merely a defensive vessel, but a very distinctly offensive one.

Dr. SMARTT: But, in the meantime, the Admiralty would be quite prepared to consider, if the Cape desires to accept further obligations, whether it should take the shape of submarines or destroyers?

Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Yes, either or both.

Dr. SMARTT: Should that position be taken up, the grant which is now paid to the Navy, and any further amount that might be necessary, would be devoted to this purpose instead of being paid to the Admiralty as at the present moment. That is a point I want to be very clear upon. The Cape and Natal are giving 85,0001. A small portion of that will be used to provide a nucleus crew to the Odin," so as always to be able to go to sea for the purpose of training our Naval Volunteers along the const. Then, if we establish submarines or destroyers, I understand that it is the intention of

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Thirteenth Day 8 May 1907.

the Admiralty that the balance of the 85,000l. should be devoted to that purpose, plus any extra amount of money that may be voted by the Colony in order to establish a service of that sort. I at once acknowledge that the contribution on behalf of the Cape is not at all adequate to the services which NAVAL Defence,

(Dr. Smartt.) the Navy renders to our defences, and I have no doubt that when the federation General Botha spoke of the other day takes place, as the ports of Cape Colony and Natal will be equally the ports of the Transvaal, both the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony will also recognise their obligations to contribute towards a defence scheme of that sort. Therefore, I do not see any difficulty in the future, with the assistance of the Admiralty, in working up a consider- able defence of this character. I presume then the Admiralty would place at our disposal before we return to the Cape--or if not before, as soon after as possible the necessary information, as to the cost of establishing a submarine or destroyer force, i.e., the cost of the ship, whether it be a submarine or destroyer, and the cost and number of the crew necessary for upkeep, so that we could see in what direction we would have to work.

I do not wish to take up the time of the Conference, but I would like to ask Lord Tweedmouth whether he has inquired into a statement I made some few days ago with regard to the Naval docks at Simonstown, in which I stated I had been informed that as the docks are now being constructed under heavy south-east gales, it would be impossible or dangerous for a ship to to enter those docks until the gale abated. You were good enough to say you would inquire whether that was correct or not, with a view, if my information is correct, of having something done to expend the necessary extra 60,000l., or 70,000l. to rectify it.

There were some other matters relating to shore defence, but I do not know whether they ought to be discussed here or privately with the Admiralty

of or with the War Office. There is the matter of the manning

Lord TWEEDMOUTH: That is a War Office matter.

our defences.

Dr. SMARTT: It would be better discussed with the War Office or Admiralty privately, there being a mutual arrangement between the Cape and the War Office in connection therewith.

Mr. F. R. MOOR: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I follow on the lines of the Cape. Our proposal now-and I think the two Governments are in accord--is that we should work together as regards this training ship which shall be available for our common cause, and to give our men the necessary training at sea. The expense of this is to come out of our mutual contribu- tions; and then the question of the submarines is to be taken up hereafter as to the cost and as to any increased expenditure in regard to maintaining these craft at our different harbours.

I am prepared to join with my colleague from the Cape in furthering the objects we mutually have in view, and I trust before we leave, the Admiralty will be able to give us a definite answer to what we are placing before them, so that we shall be able to go back to South Africa and explain to our people what the terms of the provisional agreement are. We are going to meet our Parliaments in a month or two, and I think it would be very advantageous both to my Parliament and the Cape Parliament that we should have the proposals definitely settled before we leave England.

I have nothing more to say, and I trust the lines suggested will be beneficial to our Colony and the Navy generally.

Mr. BRODEUR: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I have nothing to say except to thank heartily Lord Tweedmouth for having been good enough to