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their toes frightfully ulcerated, many of which required to be amputated. When this was brought to the Governor's attention he appointed a Commission, of which I was one. His Excellency appointed me, and in the whole of my life I never saw such abuses; the whole mischief arose from filth and dirt and jiggers. I do not know whether your Lordship has got the Report, but it is a most awful exposé; the dietary was miserable, in fact, it was a starvation dietary, and of supervision there was none, the medical officer and the superintendent did not work together. All this is written down in the Report, and yet it costs the island a large sum of money. Another asylum has recently been established at Kingston-the St. Andrew's Asylum, which was instituted at my request when Custos of Kingston, which I was for eight years, both under the old and under the new régime. It was intended to make the old .people comfortable there, but I regret ever having proposed it; the mortality in that asylum is frightful, and there, I may tell your Lordship, the Coroner's inquests are very strange indeed.

Now, my Lord, another matter, which is not so far directly sanitary, is the Peni- tentiary. I have had great opportunities of knowing the sanitary condition of the Penitentiary. It was always hoped that when there was money forthcoming to apply to.it, the Penitentiary would be finished. I need not remind you that in 1848 there was a terrible charge of sodamy being a constant practice in the Penitentiary. It was recommended that the cells should be finished, and the association wards done away with; but, in spite of the surplus revenue, very little has been done. Some cells have been added lately, but what is the consequence? Sodamy has gone on, and every now and then an epidemic breaks out, and carries off a number of prisoners. prison will only hold 400, but 600 are put into it, and then an epidemic breaks

out.

The

My Lord, there are several other statements which I would like to make, but, as I understand your Lordship has other engagements, I will not trouble you with them.

Earl of Carnarvon.I have listened very attentively, gentlemen, to all that has been read and said. You are aware that last week I had an opportunity of receiving another deputation, who may be said to have stated somewhat the opposite view of the question to that which you have laid before me, and on some points your two views come in conflict. I do not propose to express any opinion at present. I am glad to have heard both parties, and I shall endeavour, as deliberately and as carefully as I can, to form a right conclusion on the subject.

I have been very glad that Sir Anthony Musgrave, who, before very long, will go out to Jamaica to assume the reins of government there, should have been present and have heard the statements on both sides. It will quicken his anxiety to look into all these matters, and to confer with me as to what should be the best remedy to be applied.

In the carlier parts of the remarks which have been made to-day, a good deal was said as to the taxation and the expenditure, and so on. When it was stated that this deputation was not satisfied with the present form of constitution, I understood that to be qualified by subsequent explanation, that it was only with regard to a part of the constitution that they are not satisfied, and that have no desire whatever to return to the original state of things.

Mr. Lubbock.-Your Lordship must be under a misapprehension if you suppose that we do not wish any alteration; we do wish a slight modification.

Earl of Carnarvon. One of the points on which such modification is deemed to be necessary has been a point which was also raised by the deputation which I saw a short time since. They are not quite satisfied with the constitution of the Council, only of course they would desire to see an enlargement of the Council, I apprehend not entirely in the same direction in which the gentlemen whom I am now addressing would, and that shows some of the difficulties which one has to take into account in considering these matters. But as I understood the statement with regard to the revenue and taxation, it was this, that inasmuch as the revenue and the expenditure of recent years has increased, it is to be assumed that the taxation has increased proportionately, and that that is not by any means a satisfactory state of affairs.

Now I apprehend the state of the case to be this, that although no doubt the revenue and the expenditure have both largely increased during the last few years, there has been really of later years no increase whatever in the taxation to speak of. When Sir John Grant, after the Jamaica riots, went out and assumed the Government, he, as far as I remember, found a financial condition of affairs which rendered a change necessary, and he restored the equilibrium between income and expenditure by

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the imposition of certain taxes. These taxes produced their results, and so completely did they produce those results, that a few years later it was possible to remove a certain portion of the taxation. Since that time I apprehend that no new taxes to speak of have been added, the increase of the revenue has been steadily progressive, and I believe that has been the natural increment of revenue which follows from a larger consumption of articles, and which, in fact, is a perfectly legitimate source of increase, and therefore it is not to be assumed that because there has been an increase of revenue and expenditure consequently the taxation of the island has been materially increased.

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So far as the revenue is concerned, I have some papers by me which will throw, think, not altogether an unsatisfactory light upon the present position of affairs for the past year. As I understand it, the general revenue was estimated for a surplus of 4,000, the actual surplus was over 30,000l., the receipts having been very nearly 14,000l. more, and the expenditure about 12,000. less than the estimate." That shows, I think, not an unsatisfactory state of revenue. Of course I might go a good deal into detail, but on these broad facts it is fair enough to say that the revenue is not in an unsatisfactory state. From 1860 to 1866 there was, I think, a deficit, and a growing deficit, there was a deficit every year, but from the year 1868 to 1875 there has been a steady surplus of revenue over expenditure, with the exception of one single year, namely, 1873, when some exceptional circunstances would account for that. There fore I do not think that the financial position of the Island can be regarded unsatisfactory one.

as an

The different points that have been pressed upon me seem, some of them I own, deserving of very great consideration. I am quite aware that the Deputation desires to see one-third of the cost of administration placed upon the general revenue; and, if I gathered what was said, the gentleman who addressed me, illustrated it by the case of Trinidad and British Guiana. I am qu'te aware that the planters' interest has had a trying time to deal with. Nobody feels more than I do the importance of giving any reasonable and proper help that can be given to a great interest of that sort, if I could see my way fairly to do it; at the same time it must be borne in mind that the position of Jamaica is not identical with that of Trinidad and British Guiana. In British Guiana and in Trinidad a very much larger proportion of the revenue is unquestionably made up by the produce from the estates. Sugar and rum bear a very much larger proportion to the total revenue of those two Colonies than they do in Jamaica, and that of course, is a point which ought not in fairness to be lost sight af, and even if I were disposed to lose sight of it, it would have been pressed upon me very quickly.

With regard to some of the other points which have been urged, I am hardly prepared to go into them on such an occasion as this; they are so very much matters of detail. A good deal of what Dr. Bowerbank says no doubt is included in past corre- spondence which has come before the office; other details were new to me. I am afraid that there is a great deal of truth in what he said as to the insufficient and unsatisfactory-character of the medical service in the island, but it is an evil which it is not easy to correct. All these things are questions of finance, and to place either the medical service or the hospitals upon a right footing, no doubt, such as one desires to see them, costs money. At the same time, if there be abuses, such as Dr. Bower- bank mentions, those must be put an end to at all hazards, for it is perfectly monstrous and I am sure Sir Anthony Musgrave will give his very best attention to all that part of the question when he goes out to Jamaica. He will look into it carefully, and will see not only how far the actual facts corroborate those statements, but also what are the true remedies to be applied. If the state of the case be so bad as it is now represented, the remedy should be applied firmly and completely without a moment's unnecessary delay.

Again a point was mentioned to which I shall be very glad that Sir Anthony Musgrave should give his attention, and that is the question of vagrancy and robbing the provision grounds. I am not prepared to say how far that needs checking, but Ì am satisfied that he will look into that thoroughly also. I know the main question is that of contributing a large proportion of the general revenue to the cause of immi- gration, and that I know is a point which dwells very much in the minds of all those here present. I can give no answer upon that point at present. I can only repeat what I said before, that so far as I can see my way to giving legitimato help to a great interest such as the sugar-growing interest of Jamaica, I shall only be too glad to do it. At the same time these are matters in which all the interests must be embraced in the same way. It is impossible to hold out the hand to one without

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