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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

TC.O. 882

سلنسائيليا

9

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

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July 1S

MATRITH ROYAL COLMISSION, 1909

P. RAMPHAL.

I have got that complant to make about carts As to those people who which go on the palhe road.

ar condered to have a singar estate, their carts alza | on the public road, and yet they are not taxed anything, that is to say. they have not to make a leclaration, hut. because I am an Indian, and I have 201 -ome 300 or 409 Letes of land. I am not considered 15 have a sugar estate, and I am obliged to declare my

Arts.

14,449 Do you suggest to us that the large sugar eslatma do not make any declaration about their carts? -There are certain planters who are not Indians, and. although there is no factory on their sugar estates. still their lands are considered sugar estates, and these I have got more land uren do not declare their carta.

tent than those men who do not declare their arts, and when I was asked to declare my carts, I ude a protest and I spoke to Mr Sauzier, the Honourable Member of the Council, and Mr. Sauzier has lodged a petition on that point.

Sir Edward O'Malley That seems to me quite u reasonable complaint, I think we ought to go into that

Mr. Wondruck. to Mr Manilal.) Apparently wo hatinction is drawn between a sugar estate and some. Am I right? I am thing which is not a singar estate. asking you as a local lawyer, do you know anything about the distinction which is drawn between sugar stites and properties which are not sugar estates for that purpose?

(Mr Manital 1 do not know that distinction.

I am looking at Mr. Woodcock.) I cannot find it. the Schedule of Taxes and Licence Duties and so on, and I cannot find it.

14.450 (Chairman) I think perhaps the witness does not understand it. The cart which is used only on public road does his own land and does not go on to a not pay the licence, but if it goes on to the public road. it has to pay (To the Witness.) Is that what you mean? When I saw that according to law I am not required to make a declaration, and when I found that there were other people who had less land than myself, and those people did not make a declaration, I did not pay the tax and I complained to Mr. Sauzier on that poist

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(Mr Manilal.) This is how I understand it. think, according to law, every man is required to pay a tax if his carte are to be taken on the public road, the small planter, the big planter, or anybody who owns carta It seems that some sugar estates, although really speaking not sugar estates, take their carts on

to the public road, and do not pay the tax.

(Chairman) Why should they take their carta on to the public road; they have only to take their canes from the field to the factory. This man has no factory. she has to take his canes by a public road to the factory.

(Mr Manilal.) That is exactly what he says. He says, as regards those people, he has no complaint to make, but there are other men who have no factory and who have to carry their canes just as he has to do, and do not pay the tax.

14.451. (Chairman.) Then your point is that you are not suffering any injustice. but the other people get off paying the tax that you have to pay ?—Yes.

14.452. (Mr. Woodcock.) Can you give us the name of any planter who is doing that to your knowledge?— I can give the names, but when you will go away to England, if it is known that I mentioned their names. I may get into trouble.

14,453. (Chairman) How in anyone to know that you gave us the names ?-Mr. Leclézio, who has got his estate at Mapou.

[Continued

14.434. Do you say that he pays nothing for his Parts --It is not that all his carts are not declared Those carts which have to come to town are declared. but those carts which carry sugar comes from his field to a neighbouring factory and which pass over the public road are not declared.

14,455. How do you know that?-I have seen it with my own eyes.

14,456. But how do you know whether Mr Leclézio pays for those carts or not? You cannot see that with your own eyes. Have you seen an unnumbered cart on the high road; is that what you say? The estate carta have got a different number to the carts that go on the road and you have seen the estate carts go on the public road. Is that what you say?-A number is put on the carts like that. and I have never seen a number like that on the carte belonging to Mr. Leclézio. (Handing a document.)

DOW

14.457. Quite so.

That is what I asked you just

You have never seen the ordinary number on the caris that you have seen on the high road. I am afraid that is not good enough evidence?--I have not seen any with such a number

14,458. Is this the number of your own cart -It is declared in the name of my mother, because I hold a power of attorney from my mother.

cart

has got this "484–85

14.459. Which is the registered number of this La 50 the registered number? Though it on it, the registered number is quite different to that?-On the cart the figure " 50" is not marked, but the figures "484" and "485 " marked.

are

14.460. How many figures; which figure is marked on the cart-One of the carts is marked 484 ** another cart is marked "485" and a carriole which I have got is marked " 486.**

14,461. Very well, and what was the number that you saw on Mr. Leclézio's carta P-—1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. just like that.

14,462. They may have been the first on the register; that is no evidence -It is not the case only with Mr. Leclézio, but it is the same with Lecourt de Billots, at Pamplemousses; there the carta are also marked in that way, and in the same way they also do it now.

After I made that protest. I did like that, and the Revenge authorities did not trouble me.

14.483. Then for this year, 1909, you have not paid your tax P-Yes.

14,464. Then what do you mean by saying that the Revenue authorities do not trouble you-These are the carts which go to town.

14,465. Very well, now how many other carts have you got besides these ?-I have got four more.

14,466. And you use them upon your estate ?-] use them upon my estate and I also use them to go to the factory.

14,467. Now you do not pay any tax on those ?-No. 14,468. You know that that is quite wrong, do you not P-Just so.

14,469. What is the name of the other estate besides Mr. Leclézio's It is not an estate exactly; it has not got a factory on it, but the estate is described BS" Solitude.'

14,470. How many years have you used those carta that belong properly to your estate for going along the road to take your canes to the factory? When did this You Bay trouble with the Revenue people occur

since that you have never paid. If you can tell us that date, that is what we want -For the last two years;

I did not pay last year, and I did not pay this year.

The witness withdrew.

29 July 1999)

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. S. GOBAIN.

(20.)

SAJAN GOBAIN, called in and examined in private. interpreted by Mr Manikal M. Ductor.

11,471 (Chairman) Where do you belong to?-- Rivière du Rempart.

11.472. What complaint have you to make of your own -not of somebody else's? —] have bought some land near Rose Belle, and I am not able to cultivate that land, because I have got no money to cultivate it, and when I go to ask for money from the bigger planters or the estates, then they either refuse the money, or they offer very high terms.

14.473. Is that your complaint? If I go to get help from the sugar estates, and if we require guano or salt. then, for a thing that may be sold for Rs. 225 in the market, they charge Rs. 250 or Rs. 260, and then they make me pay 10 per cent. or 12 per cent, and then they dictate the price of the sugar cane, and that singar dune is bound to be sold to the factory which gives that help.

14.474. I want you to say when you made an arrangement of this kind, and what the terms were ?- It is two years ago, or two-and-a-half years ago when my land was let out was leased to a number of tenants and these tenants wanted help from the state. The estate would not give them that help except on those conditions being granted by them.

14,475. I want to know when you made an arrange. ment of this kind ?—I have never personally done that. but I have stood guarantee and I know those conditions.

14,476. (Mr. Woodcock) What were those condi- tions? These men were obliged to sell their sugar rane at the rate that the estate would dictate to them. and they were obliged to sell their sugar cane to that estate only; that they were bound to do so; that salt, which was at the rate of Rs. 225 a ton on the market. was paid for at the rate of Rs. 250, and we were oldiged to pay interest at the rate of 10 per cent.

14,477. (Chairman.) What was the estate ?-The state of Rose Belle.

14,478. Do not you see that it is perfectly natural that the man who advances money should insist on the canes being brought to his factory ?--Yes, the money is given for cultivating that particular sugar cane, and it is natural that that sugar cane be given to the estate which has helped the growing of that sugar cane.

14,479. (Mr. Woodcock.) I should like to know what price did they get for their canes under this arrange. ment Last year they gave Rs. 9 a ton.

i

[Continued

14.480. (Chairman.) Your first complaint was that they had to sell their canes to the man who advanced the money. I want to know why that is a complaint? If I had not borrowed that money from the sugar estate, then I would have got Rs. 9 50 c. and Rs. 10 last year

14.481. Very likely; but you admit yourself that it is quite reasonable that the man who advances the money should insist on the canes being sold at his factory. I suppose it was part of the arrangement?

What do you say to that P Do you say that it is reasonable?--Yes, it is reasonable that the sugar estate should do that.

14,482. The only point is whether the price that was given for them is unreasonable. You say they got Rs. 9, and if they had not been obliged to sell them they might have got Rs. 9 50 e to Rs. 10. That has got nothing to do with it. This is an arrangement which they entered into themselves, and I suppose they were quite satisfied with it P-It is reasonable from the standpoint of the estate, but if the rates of transit by rail had not been as high as they are, then we might have got a very good price for the canes last year.

canea.

14,483. (Mr. Woodcock.) Was not about Rs. 9 the fair price that was obtaining throughout the Island last year The price is not sufficiently high, because owners of larger tracts of land receive a higher price for their sugar canes than those who are very small planters.

the 14,484. (Chairman.) It depends on This is no complaint at all. When you speak of the salt, which you say in the town costs Rs. 225 a ton, I suppose the planter had to take it out, and Rs. 250 L also part of the bargain. How can you come and com. plain here of an arrangement which you made willingly and which you yourself guaranteed ?-The complaint is of course, it was a part of the bargain between the parties that if I had had the money I would not have been obliged to borrow money from the estate, and I would not have been handicapped.

14,485. The whole point is you want the Govern ment to advance money to planters at a low rate of interest P-That is what I want.

14.486. Is that all you have got to say?-There is nothing else I want to say.

The witness withdrew,

(21.)

PEER ALLY, called in and examined in private, interpreted by Mr. Manilal M. Doctor.

14,487. (Chairman.) Where do you come from ?— Rivière du Rempart.

14,488. (Mr. Woodcock.) How much land do you cultivate P-About seven arpenta.

14.489. (Chairman.) What do you want to com. plain about; have you got any complaint to make P— There is not sufficient money to cultivate my land.

14,490. Is that all -The estates which are near at band come to a certain understanding amongst them. selves and they buy sugar cane at a lower rate than estates which are farther away, which pay a higher value for the sugar cane.

14,491. What is the rate that they offer, the estates which are near?-These people give Rs. 8 a ton and those who are further away give Ra. 9.

14,492. Does not it depend upon the canes-- whether the canes are good, or whether they are not good? There is no difference in the canos, and the canes that are planted near at hand are as good as the canes that are planted far away, and yet there is a difference in the price.

บ 2700., &c.

14,493. The witness who has just gone out com- plains that he could only get Rs. 9 for the canes, and he said that Rs. 9 was a good price ?—That depends on the locality where the canes are sold. In my part I would consider Rs. 9 a very good price. If it were paid in some other districts, Rs. 9 may be a price that was rather low, because the man might get a higher price.

14,494. Does not that show that the different places are, some of them, not so good as others P-It is the owners of sugar estates who know the difference between the sugar canes from one district and the sugar canes from another district. We are concerned with the planting and we do not know whether sugar canes in one district yield more sugar than sugar canes in another district.

GRILEN

at

14,495. Now what complaint are you making ?— Those who plant on a large scale get a good price for the sugar cane, whilst those who plant on a smaller scale, who have got a small plantation-2, 3, 4, or 5 arpente do not get the same price as those that plant on a large scale,

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20 July 1900

MAT GELIUS ROYAL COMMISstos, 1900

Mr l'

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