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27 July 1909,

MAURITIUS ROYAL COMMISSION, 1909 :

Dr J G HORWOOD.

in respect of a stall Yea, he has to do that, and he gets furmous if he happens to be an Englishman

13.799 But that is work which is done by a poleman-Oh, yes, and that is what makes people wild who have come out here from home and have to de that work They have to go to the stalls and usk a min exactly how much, he has paid for his stall and bok at the books, and if he has not paid for his stall the person to whom it should be paid writes to the doctor, and not to the man, and the doctor has to spend his time in seeing how much money is paid.

13,800 Can you tell us of any other examples of Of course, he - this sort? -Dr Milne could tell you

could not tell you of everything in public

13. But still we ask you in private, what are the duties which are cast upon professional men that can be done by intelligent people-Yes, and that is what I say, you have to pay a medical officer's salary in so many cases where it is not needed, because the work should be done hy people of a much inferior

lucation

13,802 For the moment you cannot cite examples I do not want to press you unless you have them present to your mind, because, as you say. Dr. Milne will tell us, and, if necessary, we may perhaps get it from him Perhaps you will tell me this. Of course, in England and on the Continent a great deal of the hospital work is done by doctors for nothing. who are only too glad to get the practice -Yes.

13,803 What is your view about that in Mauritius ? -I think it would be an excellent system

13,804. (Chairman.) Only they would not do it?-- No, they will not sign a death certificate without being paid for it. No death certification was required until the plague service was introduced, and then in certain areas, Plaines Wilhems and the defined areas, certifi- On the form it says: cates had to be given for death.

Any examination made more than 24 hours before death will not be considered sufficient for the pur poses of this certificate," but they will accept it if the examination is made a week before; for that certifi- cate you are paid by Government Rs. 2, and your He certificate must go to Dr Castel to be checked enters it in his book, for which, of course, he is paid agnit

13,805 (Mr. Woodcock) With regard to these death certificates, am not I right in thinking that in England no doctor could do that?—No doctor expects Afee from Government.

13,806 In that so I have not been paid a fee at home from Government. Of course, you may charge a private patient's estate, but I have never heard of Government paying for a death certificate. You are paid for a notification certificate of contagious disease by Government.

13,807. By the medical officer - Yes, by the medical officer of health

18 MP

13,808. You know, and I would not say whether it I will not pursue it; probably you are right ?----

1

I never remember being paid for a death certificate. know that in cases of contagious diseases one is paid for notification. My memory is rather a bad one, but 1 was in private practice at home, and 1 do not remember receiving a fee for a death certificate from Government, but I may be wrong.

13,809. With regard to the plague, we find a lot of money is being spent here on this special plague service? That is partly through the concealment of plague cases, For instance, if a doctor does not Those to notify a case he does not notify it. He says be will not notify it, and on account of the local influence the director will not prosecute, and therefore it goes on and it spreads.

13,810. Supposing a cane came to you which you were satisfied was a plague case, or had grave suspicions that it was plague case, and that was not notified by the doctor attending, and you reported that to the Govern ment, do you mean to my that the doctor would not be prosecuted for not notifying it P-You mean for not reporting it to the medical and health department!

13,811. Yoo-No, not if he were a Mauritian.,

[Continued

13.812. Though, of course, the law provides that he onght to notify that, he is under a duty to notify it -Yes

Of course, that comes into the medical officer of health's department. 13.813. 1 know

We are rather anxious to find out as much as we can about that department Of course. we do not want you to tell us anything unless you know it of your own knowledge? Do you mean cases that I have actually come across.

13,814. Yes. Can you give us one specific case which you have actually come across yourself? They do not come into my department, as a rule, I have never come across them.

13.815. Do you think that the large expenditure which is at present being made on this plague pre- vention is necessary?--I should think there is a great deal of waste in the way it is managed

13,816 For example, in what way -For example, in the matter of the death certificates. That all comes into the plague service. I think it is a good thing that they are very particular about the rats. because there is no doubt that plague is caught from rats, and they have kept it down by killing the rats.

13,817. You think that has been of good service ?— Yes, I think it has

13,818. Do you think that that rat business has been properly carried out I should think there has been a lot of waste, but I could not say.

I do think

13,819-20. Perhaps you have not looked into it sufficiently generally--No. I have not. they have done well in looking after their rate.

(Mr. Woodcock.) With regard to these quarantine stations at Flat Island and Cannoniere Point, what is your view about those? Do you think it is necessary to keep Flat Island going with a staff and the buildings kept up in the way they are, and so on? We understand it has been used twice in the last six years.

it

13,821. (Chairman) Do you know anything about

I know very little about it.

Do you

13,822. (Mr. Woodcock.) If you do not know any. thing about it, of course, I do not want to trouble you? -No, I know very little about that station. mean quarantine with regard to animals P

13,823 No.

we find this. Here is a place like Flat Island, which is kept up at some considerable expense, we find that two cases have been sent to that quarantine station in six years P-I should think it is absolutely

unnecessary.

13,824. And we are inclined to look at it from that point of view. We wonder whether it is necessary to involve the island in that expense ?—I should have said it was quite unnecessary. I know that animals are kept in quarantine, horses for instance, until the officer who has to inspect them has a sufficient sum given to him as a persuasion that he should allow those horses to be taken out.

13,825. Do you know a case of that kind, it is a very serious charge to mako-Mr. Blyth told me that it happened to some horses of his. He is not in the island now. I do not really come across much of that sort of thing, but that in what I was told.

13,826. (Chairman.) I should like to ask you What is a Creole -There are two meanings to the word.

13,827. What do you understand by the Creole that you have been speaking of P—I mean a hybrid, uanully composed of French and Indian, always coloured blood, but not pure Indian and not pure African.

13,828. When you speak of these people whom you call Creoles, whom do you mean -It is usually a mixture of French-Indian, or sometimes African- French-Indian.

13,829. Yen; but you have been telling us that the Creole cannot bear the Indian P-As a rule, they do not like them.

13,830. What do you mean by "Creole" when you say that ?The people who wear hats and shoes and who are coloured. They are not Indians; they are of mixed birth.

18,881. (Mr. Woodcock.) Is it necessary to your definition that there must be any white blood P-No.

13,832. (Bir Edward O'Malley.) But there may be ? -Yea

27 July 1909]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Dr. J. G. HORWOOD

13.833. (Chairman.) The enormous majority of the population of this Island are people that have been horn in Mauritius, who are called Creoles ?--Yes, but that was not the meaning I was intending to convey.

13.834. The real Indian who was born in Mauritius is called in Mauritius a Creole, though he is an Indian. Are those the people you mean ?-No, I do not mean those. Of course, anybody who is born out here is a Creole at that rate.

13,835. Yes I do not mean that.

13,836. Would it get nearer to it if I were to say, people whose names are not European names ?—No, it he nothing to do with the names,

13.837. Are they ever called Mootoo Sami and Govena Sami ?-No.

13.838. That has not got a great deal to do with it -The name is nearly always French or English.

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[Continued

would be a Creole; his name would be an Indian name, and he would be an Indian.

13,846. Very well; and then what would you call their children —Creoles.

13,847. You mean if they have got any mixture of European blood, however remote P-Yes, or even African and Indian-mixed blood. There are a fair number of them; Chinese and Indian too, mixed, would Be Creoles.

13,849. When you speak of the strong feeling between the Creoles and the Indians, you also say that there are a number of doctors here who are Creoles ?— Yea, a great number.

not.

13,849. You say that they do not care to attend Indians ? If they do not get money for it they do

Of course there are exceptions. 13,850. They despise them -One very good doctor out here said to me, " No doctor here cures for Indian practice." That is what I was told when I first came out, because I was afraid of taking work away from other people when the other people might get a fee. I asked him particularly about the subject, and he said: "You need not be in the least afraid of that. man here cares for Indian medical practice."

19,839. Now you are getting somewhere near it, because in the Island of Mauritius all the people who are born in Mauritius are Creoles; all the Indian immigrants who have been introduced here 50 years or more ago, and their children born in the Island, are all Creoles

"because no Those are not the people you mean, I suppose?—No.

13.840 You call those Indians P-Whose parents were of Indian birth, and without any mixed blood!

13,841. Yes, those are all Indians from your point of view? Yes.

13,842. And you say there is a very strong feeling between the person with the European name and the person with an Eastern name -Yes. Of course, some- times you find a Creole woman, the person whom I call Creole, who has married a Lascar, and her name is an Indian name.

19.843. Her name may be, but his name would- not-He would be Indian, but she would be Creole; the name would be the same.

13,844. But I thought you said a Creole married Lascar -Yes, but his name would be Indian; he would be the Lascar; his name would be the Indian

name.

13,851. One other question. You told Mr. Wood. cock just now that a death certificate signed by you, for instance, had to go to somebody else?-Yes, to Dr. Castel.

13,852. Who is he?—He is at Quatre Bornes; I think he is the plague officer.

13,853. It does not matter about what his title is.. You say the certificate must go to him, though it has heen signed by a qualified doctor P-Yes, and the man who takes that certificate, if he is an Indian, has very often waited half a day and lost a day from his work in order to get my certificate viséd (certified).

13,854. In order to get it viséd P—Yes. 13,855. And I suppose for viséing that certificate he charges a fee P-He does not charge the patient a fee, but I imagine he would not do it unless he got a fee from somewhere. It is part of the plague work—it in part of the plague service work.

18,856. You mean the Government paya?—Yes, it comes under the beading of "plagus service."

The witness withdrew.

13.845. I thought you put it the other way?-Did I No, her name would be an Indian name, but she

Adjourned for a short time.

(13.)

The Very Reverend JAMES ROManes Bilsborrow called in and examined in private.

13,857. (Chairman.) You know, I think, that the Commission has been appointed in order to try and reduce expenses in the Colony, and, if possible, to give Home advice which will result in bringing about a better state of affairs here as regards making the revenue and expenditure meet. We could not help noticing the comparatively large absidy which is paid by the Government to the various Christian creeds here, and of those suma the largest is paid to the Roman Catholic community, naturally, because they prevail very much in the Colony. I wanted to ask you this: you see it is not only the total sum which is granted by the Govern- ment every year to the Roman Catholics and the Protestants and the Scotch Church—it is very large under any circumstances—but, of course, when the Colony is in difficulties one tries to make economies, and it look as if it were something that you could make considerable economies in. But, besides the fact of the num itself being considerable, there is this peculiarity about it in Mauritius, that the people for instanos în your church, who, I suppose, receive what, if they were Government officers, would be called salaries, are also pensionable; almost in every respect they become officers of Government, only the Government has no control over them. We want to ask you whether,

whatever the sum is-I am not quite sure what is it; I think it is something like Rs. 102,000 and Rs. 152,736 altogether---The others I do not know, but ours is Rs. 102,000.

13,858. Does that Rs. 102,000 cover the allowance for buildings —Everything, yes.

13,859. We wanted to ask you what sort of difference it would make to you if that sum, or some sum like it, were given by Government, without any regard to any further liabilities, any pensions, or any thing at all-simply if that eum were placed in the hand of your bishop, or whoever it is receives it, ou the understanding that, at any rate, the same amount of work would be done for the people of the place an is done now ?-The came amount of work would have to be done whether we got anything or nothing. We are priests, and we have to do our work for the people; we have to say Masses, administer the Sacraments, and work in the schools; if we were not paid at all we should have to do it as well as we could. We should And it extremely difficult, but we should have to do it.

18,880. That is not quite what I mean. I mean. instead of paying the priest of this village and the priest of that so much money for one thing and another, if a lump sum were given, and the Govern