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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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23 July 1909 1

MAURITIES ROYAL COMALISSION, HED

Major-General A G CREAon, CB, RA

13,316 Did you find the unofficials were for letting them off?--Yes, the unofficials were for letting them

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13.317 Mr Woodcock, Were they let off? -Yes. the death penalty was remitted to penal servitude for

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13,318 Do you mean that the whole of the Executive Council were in favour of the death penalty and these two men were not-Sir Graham Bower and myself. as members of the Executive Council, were opposed U. letting them off

13.319. How many of the Executive Council were present-There were six of us present and Mr Sangery wis acting for Mr. Banbury, and he would not s»paraté himself from them

13,320, So there were three each way?—Yes. 13,321. And the death penalty was remitted ?--Yes, it was remitted.

13,322 Sir Edward (1 Malley Were your ole jections recorded!--I do not know whether they were recorded or not

13,323 If you are over-ridden in anything in the Executive Council, you have a right to have a record taken of the objection*-We can if we want to, as 1 hid about the telegram in connection with the scholar- ship, but none of us asked on that cension for it to be recorded. I suppose it is simply put down that such and such members voted for and such and such members voted against

13,324. Dues that sort of thing often happen --the unofficials getting the best of it?-Nearly always

think the Governor takes the view of Mr. Leclézio and Sir William Newton against the views of Sir Graham Bower and myself and the other three members.

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12.325. (Chairman) How many members of the Executive Council are there, if they were all there? - Seven There is Mr Levlézio, Sir William Newton, the Receiver General, the Auditor General, the Procureur General, the Colonial Secretary and myself

13.326 And the Governor -YER.

13,327 On the occasion that you speak of the Governor was away, was he-Do you mean on the murder case?

13,328. YeR.-No, he was there.

13,329. Then there were three members in favour of the execution and three against it, and the Governor I think in the Executive gave his casting vote!-Yes.

Council, if we were all against him, he could do na be

liked.

13.830. Yes, that is the case?-I may say that the Governor did not decide that day; he decided to take the advice of those who recommended that they should be let off

13,331 (Sir Elward O'Malley.) I find it a little difficult to understand what the exact part is that these unofficial members play in the Executive Council? They are all talkers; their views are very often unsound.

13,332. Do you know cases where things have been decided upon in the Executive Council, and, when these inatters have come before the Council of Government. they have voted against them ?—No.

13,333. We have heard Mr. Leclézio give his evidence and he said he was a member; he is an unofficial member of the Executive Council P-Yes, he is a member of both.

13,334. He mentioned to us some measure, I forget what it was now, in which he took a strong view in one direction, I think. against the Education Code intro- duced by Sir Charles Bruce, and he said, Yes, he was against the gʊde, and, of course, to the public he had always posed as an opponent to the code, hut when the question came up in the Legislative Council he supported it, and he gave as his reason that he thought it was better to be friends with the Governor than it was to stop him and vote for what he thought right P— Yes, I saw that.

(Chairman.) I think he said that at that time the Colony wanted something which they thought they could not get without the Governor's assistance, and therefore he ruted in favour of the code in order to obtain something else which he thought was of great advantage to the Colony.

[Continued.

13,335. (Sir Edward O Malley, Yes, that is really what it came to (To the witness.) Your view would be to have a council of officials, and no elected members-Yea.

13,336. No elected or nominated members?—No, a wall Executive Council, I think, would be best.

13,337. There would be no opposition in the chamber? Of coured these people value very much the position

13.338. Does not it give them an opportunity of blowing off some steam, at all events?-Yes, of which they take every advantage

13,339 Does that do very much harm-Except to waste the time of the officiale, men like the Receiver General and the Auditor General, who have got a good deal to do, and the Procureur General especially, it is often a very great waste of time for them.

13,340. I can quite understand the heads of depart- ments feeling rather bitterly that their time is taken up, because under the system here they are called before the Council of Government and cross-examined and worried over their departments; but if it conduces to ruaning the umchine smoothly, of course it is our business to submit to that?—I think everyone will tell you it dows not run smoothly.

13.311. I mean there is no sedition- I do not know

I have not seen any signs of it; not anything more than a little newspaper report -They have been on very much different behaviour since you have been here, but they are very much inclined to turn nasty to their opponents.

13,342. I want to estimate that. When you say they turn masty, what do you mean by that P-You have heard, no doubt, of the Cameron scandal.

13,343. No, I do not think I have heard about the Cameron scandal-That was a very terrible scandal. Mr. Cameron was then acting as Colonial Secretary, and, in the course of a speech in the Legislative Council, he made remarks about the people which they were all vory much agaiust.

13,344. (Mr. Woodcock.) It was a very foolish and indiscreet thing to have said P-Yee, it was unwise.

13,345. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) You mean to say their feelings were very much raised about that?-Yes

(Mr. Woodcock.) It was an outrage on the people! 13,346. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) I know the dia- agreeable feeling; people may be discontented, and grumbling, and all that, but it does not go beyond that. What I meant to say was, you do not see any signs of what I should call popular dislike to the Governor

-No.

13,347. These speeches that they make do not do much harm?-No, I do not think so.

13,344. They do not do much good P-I do not think they do any good.

13,349. Individually not, but perhaps their presence there as members would help to keep them a little in order P-If you ask me my opinion, I do not think they do any good at all.

13,350. They seem to be well contented with the system; they do not blame him for the taxes P-1 do not suppose the Indians are contented, are they?

13,951. Apparently; we have seen no signs from the witnesses here, so far as I can see, that they are discontented with anything at all P-That I do not know.

13.352. They are the best people we have seen here P-They are good people, I like them, but they have no representation; they have no votes at all.

13,353. (Mr. Woodcock.) In answer to the Chairman, you said that from an Imperial point of view you Thought that the forces here might be decreased without danger, as I understood you ?—Yes.

13,354. To what point do you think they might be decreased? It is a difficult thing to say off-hand, but do you think, for example, that they might be halved? -No, I do not think we could manage it on half.

13,355. What is the total number of men at present in the Island --I can only tell you the establishment, because of course that varies a little from week to wook. The establishment in 1,406 officers and men, but, as you can understand, it depends on invaliding.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Major General A. G. CREAGH. CB., R.A.

23 July 1909.]

Some ships take away 20 men: some 10, some 6, and

SO DE

13,356. However, you think that there may be a damination without tying yourself down to a figure?— Yes, I du think so.

13,357. Without imperilling the Imperial interests ? -Yea

13.35 It has been stated that the military here pay no import duties propos of that may I hand you this memorandum which I have made out, that goes into the whole question of the Customs duties Very fully

13.359 We may take this as your evidence on the ut - Yes. (The document was handed in.)

13.360 Does this document contain matters ns to the truth of which generally you can vouch and make ot part of your evidence?-Yea.

13,361. La it quite reliable ?—Yes, it as quite reliable. We are really very hard hit by the customs.

13,362. (Chairman.) Can you say briefly that the Government gives to the military a composition of Rs. 35.000 per annum of, but the import duties you pay are larger than that?-Undoubtedly. My share mes to Rs 46 per month, and, of course, I get the Ion's share.

13,363. (Mr. Woodcock.) Of course you have to pay duty on everything you import ?--Yes.

13,364. And to pay for every bit of food you eat in the laland P-Yes, what we buy from shops.

13.385. And you say that it is not nearly covered by that amount which you are allowed ?—No.

13,366. With regard to the Executive Council. putting aside the question of the elective element for the moment, dealing only with the Executive Council, in your view, would it be well to have that composed I should like ntirely of the official element ?-Yes. to have one representative of the planting community on it.

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13,367. On the Executive Council -Yes, I think

13,368. Having regard to the fact that the planting community is the principal community in this Island. which has the greatest amount at stake P-Exactly.

13,369. Is that community at this moment in any Puse represented by either or both of the men who are now on the Executive as nominated membera?— Yea. by Mr. Leclézio, who is a planter himself.

13,370. (Chairman.) I do not want you to answer this question unless you feel that you have knowledge about it. Do you think that the fact that there are two unofficial members on the Executive Council gives them any influence outside that they take advantage of the fact that they are members of the Executive Council I have no knowledge of that.

13.371. You say that you would like to see A member of the planting community a member of the Executive Council. Would not he quite well represent the interests of the planting community as a member of the Council of Government—

13,372. (Mr. Woodcock.) As a nominated member? --That is, supposing they were both to exist as they do at present.

• Not printed.

[Continued.

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13,373. (Chairman.) No, I mean supposing that there were no unofficial members of the Executive Council, but there were perhaps a number of people who were not holding Government positions who were on the Council of Government. Could not a member of the planting community on the Council of Govern ment perfectly well represent the interests of the Why should he be on the planting community ? Executive Council. That is what I want to know? A great many things come up that involve questions in which the interests of the estates are concerned. and I think it would be a wise thing to have a mau who could speak from personal experience in regard to them.

13,374. In the Executive Council-Yea, in the Executive Council.

13,375. Could you give us an instance of the sort of question which would come before the Executive Council, which would not come before the Council?- Yes, a question of making tramways, for instance. which is a very common question. An estate owner applies to make a tramway in a certain direction, and it has to be decided in the Executive Council whether he shall be allowed to do it or not.

13,376. (Mr. Woodcock.) But do you think that that is a good example P Take it that the man on the Council, the planter whom you would like to see on the Council, is the owner of that estate, or an adjoining estate P-I quite agree that if it happened to be his own estate it would be rather awkward.

(Chairman.) But in any case that is so. Is not it much better that people who are absolutely uninterested should settle questions of that kind!

18.377. (Mr. Woodcock.) What I think weighs with the Chairman, and certainly weighs with me, in that the Executive Council could always get the advice of the planters as to whether this tramway was wanted just there or not from their knowledge of the whole of the district; they would be sufficiently well informed? -If they could get their advice I suppose there would be no occasion to have a planter on the Executive Council.

13,978. (Mr. Woodcock.) I will tell you what is in my mind about it. It seems to me a pity that men whose personal interests are apt either directly or indirectly to clash with the interests of the community as a whole should be allowed to have a voice in the inner Conncil; that is what I feel P-Yes, I see the point.

13,379. Do not you agree with me?—Yes. 13,380. (Chairman.) I only want to ask you one other question, and that, I think, is one on which you oan certainly give us a good opinion. You speak of the people here taking an objectionable line in the case of Mr. Cameron. Now, it appears very often that the population has a view which may be opposed to the view of the Government. Suppose the Government was to do something which was quite unpopular, do you think there is anything to be feared from the population here P-Certainly not.

18.381. You think then, at any time, if the Govern ment was strong, and the Government took a certain view that something was good for the Island, it could quite easily carry it out, whether the people in Mauritius liked it, or did not like it P-Certainly.

13,389. There is nothing to fear from that !- Absolutely nothing.

The witness withdrew.

Adjourned till Monday next at 10.30.

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