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-PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

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13 July 190

MAURITIUS ROYAL COMMISSION, 190)

Mr. G. DICKSON

--

I do not think 1s proposed here, it is rarely taken off. auyou would object to extra taxation for a year or tw if there was some prospect of it being withdrawn ultimately

But directly they had got the money they would spend it -They would find something new.

9829. Yes, some new department, some new officer, or something of that kind, and then, of course you You say some. might not be able to do without it. thing here which we already understood, which is that you think that the prices which are charged by the railways for transporting canes are ridiculously low. You add that if the railway belonged to a private company, of course it could not possibly carry the canes at those prices, which only ends in a loss!--They would not do it

9830. That appears to be something which ought be done at once, and in fact, having regard to the fact that they are beginning to run off for the whole f this wonderful crop, they ought to do it at once. You say you do not think the rates charged by the bank are excessive, you think you have to run con- siderable risks and you must keep a considerable sum of money in case of emergency, and therefore you do not think the 10 per cent. rate is a high one --No.

9831. You have had experience of banking in other places, have you not ?—I have

0832 Where?-In Scotland, in London, and in Paris.

9833. Then you say it has been asserted that the faisance valoir amounts to Rs. 22,000,000, whilst the banks can only lend Ra. 6,000,000, which seems to show that the whole of the industry is carried on on Irrowed money.

You say you will tell us something about that, but we had a witness this morning who appeared to know very well what he was talking about, And he told us that over 50 per cent, of the industry is arried on on borrowed money, and he said that over 50 per cent of the estates had got a debt on them, and that he thought very few out of them at all actually carried out the whole of the year's transactions without borrowing money. Does that agree with your informn. tion -Yes, in fact there are very few estates that do not borrow at some time or other during the year.

9834. You were going to tell us something about those?-I have got the position of the two banks in the Colony. It shows the amount of the advances and the amount of the cash; the deposite, the capital and reserve from 1897 up to 1909. It shows that in 1897 the total advances on the 10th April of the two banks were Ex. 8,283,000; in 1907 the total advances were Rs. 10,103,000, and on the 10th April of this year they were down to Rs. 4,805,000.

9835. When were they Rs. 10,000,000 P-In 1907, on the 10th April.

9836. Two years ago they were Rs. 10,000,000, and this year they are only Ra. 4,000,000 ?—That is no.

9837. How do you explain that P-1907 was the year when a great deal of the sugar had not been cleared off at that date, but sugar was dock warranted; it had not been shipped sway, therefore the advances were higher that year at that particular date.

98:38. (Mr. Woodcock.) Would you deal with that, Speaking from the point of view of statistion, Hà XD exceptional year, from which you really can point out nothing!-No, what I want to point out is that the banks can lend more than Ra. 6,000,000, and did do so.

9839. (Chairman.) When you show to us there that there is an absolute case where the bank has advanced over Rs. 10,000,000, you mean that even though the faisance valoir" in Ba. 22,000,000, that the whole of that money is never all out at the same time; it goes backwards and forwards P-That is so.

9840: So you think, and I suppose you are more inclined to think it to-day, that there is plenty of capital here to meet the ordinary requirements of the public -Most certainly.

9841. It is only when à disaster happens that then you are perhape put in a difficulty Of course, in 1908 people were very nervous and money was with- drawn from the banks. Many people outside the banks

Continued.

discount billa, but at that particular moment they would not do so, and of course that caused difficulties

9842. But who was there to withdraw the money. the people in Mauritius -The people in Mauritius. those people who generally keep balances to their credit withdrew the money.

P843. What did they do with it? Some people kept it in their safes. I know there was a manager of one of the firms who died, and when they opened his safe there were Rs 10,000 in notes in it.

9844. Then there was, at that time, something like a run on the bank -Not on our bank.

9845. Not on your bank, but on the Commercial Bank-1 cannot speak for the Commercial Bank, but there was never any fear of a run on our bank.

9846. I mean that if people were withdrawing their balances, it looks very much like it ?-In January 1908 our deposita fall to 14 lacs from 22 lacs, and on the 10th April our deposits were 12 lacs under the

average.

9847. What conclusion do you draw from that?- That either money was being hoarded or that there was no money in the place.

9848. You say that an agricultural bank to aarist the small planters would be of advantage, but you cannot see how an efficient control could be exercised over the small borrowers --No, I cannot.

0840. Of course we understand that the planter who has a mill very often makes advances to the small men, and he has got his eye on them all the time and can see what they are doing and could see that it in practically safe, but no institution could do that?- No, the charges would be very heavy for any bank to try and supervise them.

9850. Ton yourself would not dream of advancing to the small planters -No, we would not.

9851. In all the years that you have been here have you ever heard that these people are victimised and squeezed by people about lending them money?— Never.

9852. You do not believe it P-I do not think so.

I think they are very well treated.

LI

9853. This is what I referred to before: "Although "I do not consider it to be the duty of Government to provide money at low rates to pay off existing "mortgages on estates, yet if it is decided to assist "planters in some way, it might be well to consider whether such a form of relief might not be of more "practical benefit to planters and the sugar industry "in general than a loan for the improvement of "machinery." That is what I meant when I said before that you consider it would be of benefit to the Colony if money were advanced to the planters without any condition that it was to be employed for the purposes of improving their machinery or for any other purpose-It might be an advantage, yes; but of course the Government would have to have a first line mortgage.

9854. Of course, always supposing the security is. good. You add to that that you do not think that they want it, and that if it was offered to them you do not think many of them would take it?—At the present tboment I do not think they would, but I do not think it is the real reason.

0855. What in it then? It is the fact that he is in debt P-It is the fact that the estates are so burdened.

9856. The fact is having 1001, he bought some- thing worth 1,000!., and he has had to borrow 9001. to get it, and naturally he is in debt P-That is so.

9857. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) You look to it tha It is not the difficulty of getting money now, but it is the improvidence of starting with insufficient capital!

-Yes.

9858. And that is what they want made up ?-Te 9859. (Mr. Woodcock.) There is only one point that strikes me: auming that money were borrowed for the planting interest; assuming they did want it; the lending of that money on the land on a first line charge would not in any way compete with the banks in Mauritius I do not think so.

9860. You do not do that class of business at all? -We do not do that class of businese at all; as m

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. G. DICKSON.

13 July 1009.]

matter of fact we always try to avoid any locking up of funds.

9861. That is all I wanted to ask you?—There is ne point about the Military contribution which I -hould like to mention. I think that most of the people who have objected to that forget the amount of money that is spent annually by the troope in Mauritius.

9862. (Chairman.) I think they realise that, because directly you say anything to them about the withdrawal f the troops they alway say: Of course that would take away a large sum of money out of Mauritius. They do not want that; they want the troops here, but they do not want to pay for them -Here are the bills which were sold by the District Paymaster from 1902 to 1906-07 and it is over 100,000% per annum, besides the Rs. 440,000 which they get from the Mauritius Government; that is also spent here.

9863. That means about 130,000l. a year ?—In 1902 alone there were 137,000l.; in 1903, 105,0001.; in 1904, 128,000, in 1905, 100,000., and in 1906, 127,000.

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[Continued.

9864. Actually distributed amongst the troops here? -Yea. Of course too there are money spent on works by the military authorities.

9865. I suppose most of it is spent here, but a portion of that money might be sent away by the people to England -I am afraid there is very little sent away. At the time the Indian troops were here there was a certain amount of the money went away; the Bengal troops are very saving, and they sent a lot of money

home.

9866. But that is not the case with the white regiments ?-With very few of them; very few of them

GAVO.

9867. You have got something else which you wish to tell me -This is the minimum rates of discount. thought it might interest you.

I

9888. The minimum rates of discount charged by the bank during what time ?-From 1897 to date. It varies from 8 per cent. to 15 per cent. On the 20th February 1898 it was 15 per cent. That was caused by Article 5 of Ordinance No. 28 of 1878 being sus pended, relieving the Commissioners of Currency of giving coin for notes.

The witness withdrew.

Adjourned till Thuraday next at 10.30.

EIGHTEENTH SITTING.

Tuesday, 20th July 1909.

At Government House, Port Louis.

(5.)

Examination of the Hon. F. A. HERCHENBODEB, K.C., continued in private,

12,125. (Chairman) I think perhaps it would be fair, after what I said just now, if I were to tell you that when visiting the prison the other day, the chief wurder there, after we had seen the prison, told us of a case of a man who had been a warder in the prison. whom he himself arrested one day going out of the prison with a large number of eggs which he had stolen from the hospital of the prison. He asked him where he had got them. The man could not explain himself and he was put under arrest at once, and, after some time, admitted that he had stolen those.eggs with the assistance of another man, and also of course, I am only telling you what we were told-thai there was evidence to show that he had taken these eggs. There was nowhere else for him to get them from excepting the kitchen of the hospital, and the case, for some reason or other, was referred to the parquet, and we were shown the opinion which was signed by the Crown Prosecutor, which was dated a year later, during all which time this man had been op duty, though there was this charge hanging over his head, in which he said that he had very carefully gone into the case, and that he did not think there was enough vidence to support it ?-----Could you give me the name of the man P

12.196. Martin was the name P-It must be one of these petty cases that do not reach me.

12,127. It was in the year 1904. His name was Martin. Apparently he was caught in Aagrante delicto. He admitted it; there was evidence to prove it, and it took 12 months to get the opinion, and at the end of 12 months the Crown Prosecutor said he could not advise that the case should be gone on with, because he did

not see that there was any evidence to show that there had been a theft. That is as far,ne thy memory goes. I read it myself; and the consequence was that the man continued to be employed in the prison, and, of course, treated everybody as he liked; he sort of said, "I can do what I like," and eventually, finding that he was not promoted, he took his pension only a month ago I am not surprised to find that I had no recollection of him, as it was in 1904 (I was not in Mauritius), although that does not make it better.

12,128. I thought it was only fair to tell you what I was driving at F-But on this point I should like to make a statement to you, not of any grievance, but a plain statement. You will not be able to form an adequate idea of the immense trouble I have taken, if I may be forgiven for saying so, to reduce and minimise those delays in the dealing with papers and in the administration of justice.

12,129. (Mr. Woodoock.) What we feel is that your department is probably overworked ?—It in overworked; but, overworked or not, there is no excuse in a caso like that.

12,190. (Chairman.) It is nothing to do with that; I am only thinking of why your department should be consulted at all Here is a case where you would have thought the matter would have been reported straight to the Government, and either the Government would have gone to you and said: "We will prosecute this man" or not. I should have thought the inspector of prisons, the superintendent of prisons, or whatever he is called, would have reported the osse to the Colomini Secretary; the Colonial Secretary would have taken the opinion of the Governor. It would perhaps have

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