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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO:

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13 July 1909

MAURITIUS ROYAL COMMISSION, 1900

Mr G DickSON

FOURTEENTH SITTING.

Tuesday, 13th July 1909.

At Government House, Port Louis.

(4)

Mr GEORGE DICKSON, called in and examined in private

9758 (Chairman) In answer to our question, you sail that one of the reasons which had led to the difficulties was that schemes had been proposed and carried out which were not of urgent necessity. What were yon thinking of -The scheme I had in my mind at the time was the Bacteriological Institute, which I think could perfectly well have been postponed to some future time.

9759. Any other That is the only one I remember, Lut there are other schemes which were carried out, such as the town tramway some years ago, which I think might not have been carried out, and there is a disinfecting station which is also built, and I do not think that is alsolutely necessary

9760. A disinfecting station in the Island ?—Yes. 9761. Is it still used I do not think it is very often used

9762. It was not at the quarantine island ?--It is clone by bere

1763. Did that cost a lot of money?-I cannot say what the cost was, but I know at the time it was considered quite unnecessary,

9764. Is there anything else -There in the question of the dredger It seems to me that if they wanted to dredge the harbour in three years, that it was not necessary to go to the expense of getting a new and up-to-date dredger for that purpose.

9765. But the dredger did the work very much quicker though--It did it in two years.

9768. You say that money is abundant ?-At the present moment it is.

9767. There is no want of money at all?-None at all.

9768. In fact you are waiting to lend it?—Yes, we bare got too much.

9789. I imagine you could lend it if you reduced your rate of interest-I do not think so; I do not think it is a question of the rates that prevents us from lending it.

cent.

9770 What is the rate now?-Our rate is 10 per

9771. That is 10 per cent. for a loan of what kind? -For a discount rate on bills discounted.

9772. And to planters what would you lend at on the crop, my-The same rate, 10 per cent.

9773. (Mr. Woodcock.) You do not lend on the crop, I understand P-We have made advanose; we do not usually make advances against the crop, but this Your we have made advances under the law of 1898, I think it in.

9774. (Chairman.) You have made advances against the crop, because you think the security in good P- Yes, we have got the security of the crop.

9775. With regard to the various boards that there are in this Island, have you got any opinion with regard to those?--It seems to me that the head of the depart. ment ought to be the responsible party. If he has got a board to refer to, I think that he would be rather inclined to shirk responsibility-take cover behind the

board.

9776. How long have you been here ?-Nineteen yours.

Continued.

9777. Do you know of any of these boards doing what you consider any good?-1 am sorry to say I

do not.

9778. Do you know of their ever doing any hurtu -No, I do not.

9779. When I say harm," I mean, do you think that they interfere with the work of the head of the department?--I think they rather hamper the head of the department I mean to say, if he was allowed a free hand I think that he would be able to carry out the work of his department better than by always having to refer to the hoard.

9780. Then they are an obstruction if they are no good, and if they do hamper the responsible man they must be in the way!-Yes, if you take it like that.

9781. I suppose you recognise that they are a sort of custom of the country, that people regard them as something they cannot do without. You have noticed that, I suppose-Yes. that seems to be the opinion here.

9782. Directly they have got a department they hare a board to control the man who is at the head of it. I suppose ?-That may be one reason, but I think very often it is rather to divide responsibility.

9783. Do you think it is to divide the responsi bility of the head of the department P-Yes.

9784. I bave rather regarded it that there was a view here that you should not let any Government officer have sufficient authority to act without some of the people of the place sitting upon him and telling him that he had got to do like this and like that; that they thought it was far too autocratic to let a Govern- ment officer manage his own business in his own That is how it way without a controlling board. struck me from what has been said. You think it is rather a design for sharing responsibility -I think it might be looked at in that way.

9788. How can that be in a case of a man they have never seen ? For instance, take the case of the bead of the Public Works Department, and the post became vacant, and a man was promoted from another Colony, they would not be interested in dividing his responsibility?-I am referring more in this case to the Quarantine Board.

9786. I heard something about that the other day. and the head of the department there was very much against the board, and told us that it was perfectly nseless and led to a great deal of needless trouble ? That is always how it struck me.

9787. Do you happen to He on that board ?---No, I

do not,

3788. Speaking with reference to the possibility or advisability of raising a loan, you think that the Colony should not raise any money at all unless it is absolutely necessary ?—Yes.

9789. Because there may come a day when it will have to go borrowing, and therefore that it should not already be burdened with a big debt. Is that what you say?-Yes.

9790. Do you consider that the present debt of the Colony puts it at a disadvantage in the market in any way I do not know if the present debt exactly puts

13 July 1909]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. G. DICKSON.

at a disadvantage, but there has been so much said lately about the position of the planters, and the position of the Colony, that it might be rather against it trying to raise a loan in the London market.

9791. Do you mean against raising a loan now, or as influencing its credit generally Influencing the raising of a loan at present-at the present moment.

9792. The bonds of this Government stand at a very high premium, do they not -Yes, 114 I think was the last quotation.

9793. That is extraordinary. I suppose that is cause they carry such a high rate of interest. Is that the case P-Yeu, 4 per cent, some of them are, and some of them at 31 per cent.

9794. That is not very high. I do not know why it should stand at that premium. They very seldom change hands, do they -I am not in a position to say. 9795. As far as you know, do you know anything about the railways; have you any opinion about them?

- I am afraid I do not know much about them,

9796. Do you think there is any necessity for doing anything on the recommendations of Dr. Ross -I think so. I think the minor works might be carried out. It has been proved already that they would have a beneficial effect, and I think that after getting Pro- fessor Ross out here to make a report, it would be only well to give it a trial.

9797. You do not mean to spend the whole of the Rs. 600,000, but to make a trial P-He recommends, first of all, that the minor works should be tried, and then afterward we might try some of the larger works.

9798. Do you think it would be necessary to raise money to carry out the minor works -The ordinary works would cost about Ra. 135,000. Perhaps the amount that is voted for the plague services might be diverted to that purpose.

9799. In other words, that it should be paid out of current revenue !-Yea.

9800. You are not in favour of advancing money to planters to improve their machinery?—I am not.

9801. But you think that if anything is done in that way, it should be a matter of private enterprise P -Quite.

9802. And you also think that the advance of Government money for the improvement of small factories would be an absolute mistake, because they are things which ought to disappear automatically as the others improve; that those must go to the wall---- The tendency is that way.

9808. And that it would be quite wrong to bolster them up when their end is inevitable ?-I think so; it is simply prolonging the struggle.

9804. And you think, as regards the other factories, that where a planter realises that it will pay to improve his factory, he will do it gradually It being done.

9805. It is being done, and has been done to a large extent, I suppose ? But still, do you say that no money should be lent to planters at all, or do you way that if a Government loan could be made to some of them for any purpose that they liked, that it would improve the circumstances of the Colony generally?— I do not think at the present moment that a loan is required; I do not think if money was placed at the disposal of planters at the present moment that any of them would avail themselves of it. We had an instance of this in 1898. It was recommended that money should be advanced to planter'; a sum of 30 lacs was placed at their disposal and only 15 lace were taken.

9806. At what rate was that offered to them - I think it was 6 per cent.

9807. But was not it offered to them with this proviso, that no money would be advanced except on Arst mortgage?—You.

9806. Perhaps the people who wanted the money most were not able to give that security ?—Of course it would be necessary for them to get the sanction of the mortgagee.

9809. It would be necessary for them to get the consent of the present mortgagee !—Yes.

9810. (Mr. Woodcock.) As a matter of fact, that was so; a large number of mortgagees would not

*

[Continued.

29

uonsent to have their advances postponed; was not that the fact P-1 do not know about that; I do not think there would be difficulty in getting the holders of the mortgages to give priority, provided the loans were for a short date. It is for the long-dated loans that they object to give priority.

9811. (Chairman.) You mean that if the Govern ment were prepared to make loans on crops, that the mortgagee would be prepared to stand out of the way, but if it was for 20 years he would not P-No, what I mean is, that if there was a bad year and it was necessary to have an aid loan, I do not think the mortgagee would object to give priority. It would almost be to his advantage, because otherwise the estate might go to the wall altogether.

0812. I see that a great many of the holders of mortgages refused to give priority. Of course, I understand what you say is that if there was some unforeseen catastrophe that threatened the destruction of the industry, that then the mortgagee would be only too pleased to stand out of the way, in order to get the Government money on to the estate P-Yes.

9813. You think that an income tax would be a mistake, owing to the trouble and difficulty of collecting it ?-I do not see how you could collect it; it would be very unfair the way it would fall on different people, you could never collect the income tax from those native merchants, for instance.

9814. Now, in your bank, for instance, are there shareholders?—Yes, we have shareholders.

9815. Does it pay a dividend -You.

9816. Do the absent shareholders contribute any- thing towards the revenue of Mauritius?—Not to the revenue of Mauritius, but they pay their income tax at home on the dividends that they draw.

9817. But they escape all taxation in the place where they make their money ?—Yes.

9818. Do you consider that is fair?-But the bank pays taxes here. We pay a licence.

9819. You pay a licence which amounts to what, Rs. 1,000 a year P-Rs. 1,000 a year.

9820. What proportion would that represent towards the full amount ?-A very small item.

9821. (Mr. Woodcook.) Perhaps you cannot tell us off-hand, what do you suppose that would represent in the 17. on your dividends-I mean in the terms of income tax The dividend we declare is about 7,0001. ; that does not come to 1 per cent.

9822. (Chairman.) You say that a tax of, say, 5 per cent. on dividends paid by public companies might be imposed P-That would fall on these absent share- holders; they would have to pay then. The estimation is very low. I have taken those companies that usually pay dividends; there are many other companies that in some years may pay higher than that; other com- panies I have not considered.

9823. You give an estimate of Ra. 75,000 P-Yes. 9824. You say a licence of 50 cents a month on day labourers would bring in a certain sum, but surely 50 cents a month, Rs. 6 a year, would be tremendous ? -Yes, I am afraid that would be rather high.

9825. You say they do not contribute anything to the revenue, but surely if they eat rice they contribute to the revenue P-Yes, indirectly.

9826. That is what most people here do, with the exception of the gentleman who has just gone out, who appears to contribute directly a considerable sum; most of the other people here only pay indirect_taxes. This has interested me: "The majority of electora ** contribute little or nothing to the revenue, the taxes falling almost exclusively on the upper classes. I "fear that the incessant increase of taxation falling "on the minority may cause the many who control "the voting power to become indifferent to the "increasing expenditure of the Colony"; in other words that the people who have the vote contribute very little, but the people who have to pay are at their mercy?—Yes, I do not think that 95 per cent. of the people in Mauritius really recognise where the over- mant funds come from; they do not think about it.

9827. Then, I understand from that, that you think any further taxation should be avoided if possible !—- It is an unfortunate fact that once any new taxation