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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
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Reference :-
C.O. 885
24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
|ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
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OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:
Monday, 14th December, 1914.
Evidence taken at the Ninth Meeting.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
VICE-ADMIRAL SIR EDMOND J. W. SLADE, KC.I.E., K.C.V.O. (in the Chair).
Mr. G. B. BARSTOW, C.B.
Mr. W. J. EVANS.
Mr. T H. HOLT.
Mr. H W. MALKIN.
Mr. JOSEPH LOWBEY attended. 381. (Chairman.) You are the secretary of the Salvage Association ?—Yes.
382. We have asked you to come here to give us your opinion on the best way of dealing with a lot of these German prizes. I have two cases here?I may say I have before me two cases, the Apolda" and the "Birkenfels." I have certain information which I understood you approved my seeing.
83. Yes. I wanted in the first place to ask your opinion on the whole thing. It seems to us that the charges in some cases are higher than they need be, and I shall be very glad if you will criticise them for us? I think your permission was asked to let me have a copy of these documents, and I had an oppor. tunity of looking through them last night--I only got them yesterday-and the first point that strikes me in connection with them is that these charges are based on the assumption that it is necessary to send a crew out from this country to Cape Town for the steamers. I should have thought the natural thing was to ask whether a crew, or a part of the crew at all events, particularly the seamen, apart from the officers, but probably some of the officers, could not be picked up at Cape Town.
(Chairman) I think that has been asked.
384. (Mr. Tennyson.) That has been going on a very long time, and we understood some time ago that they had not any, but it may be they have some by now-Ordinarily one would expect that there would be a considerable number of seamen available in South Africa. and the point is particularly important because it eliminates the passage money and the wages on the voyage out, and probably also eliminates the page money and the wages home from Australia. cause if you have a crew in South Africa you would finish with them in Australia.
385. (Chairman.) You would pay them off-Yes, and they would be quite content to be left there.
386. Quite so-It is a very important point, and I should have thought the first thing to do, as soon as it was understood that the ships were ready to leave, would be to ascertain what men were available there.
337. That we can easily do. That would take off a considerable item of expense, would it not ?—Yes, because you get not only the wages of the men, but the passage money out to the Cape and back from Australia.
388. You could climinate over 2,000/. ?—Yes;
Toughly I think you are right as to the figure. Then, a to the other items, it is exceedingly difficult to miticise them. I should say that Mr. Richards in preparing these figures, as one would expect under the circumstances, bas estimated rather liberally with regard to the time to be employed.
389. That is what struck me ?-I think that would be his natural tendency. Possibly it would be fair to say that it would be just to the people who employ him that he should do so, if they are going to take any risks. The times strike me as being a little more than I should expect would be required at these various ports, and for the passage from one port to another.
390. With regard to the passage from one port to anther he has taken it on speeds. That is not very far out P-I think it would probably be fair to bear in wind that if these ships have been in Cape Town for Bore considerable time their bottoms are a little foul
Mr. G. ROPER.
Mr. C. TENNYSON.
Mr. C. D. WAKELY.
Mr. R. A. WISEMAN (Secretary).
and they are a little slower, but in the short time I had at my disposal I did compare the case of another steamer, which I should expect to be slower, a cargo boat, the Messinda " (P), and I find that her passage from South Africa to Fremantle was 19 days. That is the very time which is put down here, but she is a much slower boat. I think.
391. We may take that as resonable, but I do not see why they require six days at each of the ports, as they have only a certain amount of cargo to put out?-- I cannot understand that either. I think in that par- ticular point the estimate is liberal, because, as you know, cargoes are handled very promptly nowadays, and the times at these various ports appear to mo to be very much longer than the vessels would be detained there in the ordinary course.
392. It seems to me to be so, but that will prove itself? Yes.
303. There may be a saving on that heud P... I should think there ought to be.
394. Does he give the number of the crew?—Yes; I thought the numbers were very liberal-I think
45 men.
395. Ten officers and 45 men!-I should think a much smaller crew than that would be required for a section of a voyage like this. It is not as though you want the full running equipment of the vessel.
396. No; they will have no passengers?---A bea lately no passengers, and it is the part of the voyage which is the simplest. I think.
397. With regard to a vessel of this class and tonnage, what is the usual crew-It varies a good deal in accordance with her trade, but I should have thought a crew of 35 men would have been about as many as they wanted.
398. I should say even that was liberal?--Yes; and then the German steamers, unless carrying passengers. are allowed to carry a smaller crew than an English vessel would be allowed to carry.
319. I dare say we can cut down on that. Bay we have a reduction of 10 in the crew, that will be about a quarter off. I cannot see that we want five engineers ? -No.
400. Where they are not running to time?-That is so.
I am not quite sure whether he wants four deck officers in addition to the master. You may fairly take into account that that part of the voyage which is to be done is the part in which there are fewer danger. They do not need to have two officers on the bridge all the way across that ocean; and five engineers, 1 should say, is quite superfluous.
401. The usual complement of officers for the class of ship is the master, three officers, and three engineers, I think --Well, for a boat running in a line.
402. We must take it she is not running in a line, she has not got to hustle, she has not to keep to time, and she is simply ruuning like an ordinary tramp P Yes. For an ordinary tramp, an ordinary cargo boat, three deck officers in addition to the master, and three engineers with no donkeyman, would be considered Bufficient.
403. That is the type they will fall into?—That. I think, is the right criticism, that she need not have the equipment of officers that she had apart from this. 404. That would reduce these expenses by 25 per Your most cent. Yes, I think it might do so.
14 December 1914.]
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. J. LowRTY.
expensive men you would have to leave in; your master would necessarily be a somewhat expensive man, and the chief engineer would be an expensivo man.
405. Say, 20 per cent. --Yea, a reduction o£20 per cent, ought to be possible.
408. That will make a considerable reduction in the wages bill, of course -Yes, because it runs through the whole passage money, assuming you do not elimi- nate it by getting the crew out there, and it runs through the expenses of bringing them home again.
407. Yes, it mus through everything?—As regards the expenses estimated for getting the men out, sup- posing they have to be sent, I do not think they are
I think that but of the way.
408. Yes, that is about it P-Then, on the question of most, I was wondering whether there was any evidence as to the quantity of coal remaining on board these steamora.
correct.
(Chairman) There is only a small amount, I
think.
409. Mr. Tennyson.) There is a small amount on the "Birkenfels," aud a good deal more on the other. There is only 100 tons on the "Birkenfels "?-One would not expect these boats to be coaling at Cape Town ordinarily.
”
410. (Chairman) No. I expect the "Birkenfels was calling there ?-Possibly the explanation is that they seem to have pretty full cargoes and not much spare weight for bunkera.
411. What he has allowed for here is simply the cal which is to be used Yea.
(Mr. Tennyson.) I have the figures about coal here: "Hamm." 508 tons; “Apulia," 1,00) tons; "Ber- kinfels," 100 tons.
(Chairman.) That is considerably reduced now Iecause they have been using it.
(Mr. Tennyson. Yes.
(Chairman.) But still the "Apol·la" has probably 89) tons of coal on board.
(Mr. Tennyson.) Yes; that was the 10th November. 412. (Chairman.) Then she has probably 903 tons of coal on board That is a considerable item saved, Muyhow ?--Yes. I should have thought 50 tons a day for the coal consumption was very high if they are not forcing this boat at her full speed.
413. What is the normal speed of these boats P--
I expect them to be about 12 knots.
414. Do you remember the distance?-No, I do not remember the distance.
415. If she has been running between 9 and 10 knots, that is the ordinary tramp speed Yes.
416. It would be a 19-day passage, and she ought not to burn more than 40 tons a day?—I should have thought 40 tons a day for 10 knot steaming was quite an outside quantity, even allowing for a little foulness of the bottoms and a little loss of speed in that way.
417. It only means a little more time?-She takes a little more time, perhaps. To drive her 10 knots you have to drive her a little faster.
418. That would reduce something on that. Then with regard to the stores and provisions, the amount seems to be high P-If you reduce the crew you reduce that. I do not know whether it would be wise to assume that granting the number of men the figure is excessive, because Cape Town is a terribly expensive place to replenish stores st.
419. (Mr. Tennyson.) We have a certain amount of atores? Yes, I see credit is given for that; but Cape Town is a very expensive place to replenish stores, or to get anything else at, as a matter of fact.
420. (Chairman.) Then there is the cost of insurance. I see he puts the "Birkenfels " down at 75,0001.--that is on the hull ?-You.
421. That is rather a high estimate, is it not?—I should have thought it was a full estimate. I wondered whether he had any definite guidance as to that. He may have had some knowledge as to what the ship is insured for.
422. I do not think so?-Or was insured for. It
seems to me to be a very high rate. She is a superior cargo carrier.
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[Continued.
423. Five thousand tons, I think ?-5,639 tons.
(Chairman.) It ought not to run into more than 11.
a ton.
424. (Mr. Holt.) They reckon the value of a steamer on her tonnage, dead weight?—On her carrying capacity.
(A. Holt.) That increases it a good deal.
125. (Chairman.) Yes, but it is not 11. to 121, on her carrying capacity ?-She is 7,000, I think.
426. Seven thousand to 8,000 on the carrying capacity, as far as I remember from looking at the figures some little time ago, and I think that even if you take a big passenger steamer it is not more than 12. a ton on the gross tonnage?-When you come to a passenger steamer it depends so much on the fittings.
427. I was thinking then of the P. & O. I do not think the P. & O. averages much more than that?— The difficulty is to know. The P. & O. has certain book values, but they do not represent the cost of the ships.
428 I know. Taking the whole lot of them. I Averaged out the whole lot a good many years ago. I do not think the average of the line about eight or
nine years ago came out to more than 127. a ton in regard to any of them?--No.
429. But here Mr. Hughes says he considers that it might be between 30,0001, and 40,0001., which seems
to be much more near it ?-For the value of the ship? 430. Yas-I should be disposed to think she must be worth more than that. She is a boat that would carry a very large quantity of cargo.
31. She is 9,000 tons P-They have 11.320 tons. but that is weight and measurement, and I do not know what that represents in dead weight.
(Mr. Holt.) They reckon dead weight 24 times the net register, do they not?
132. (Chairman.) Yes, 23 times the net register?
It varies a good deal with the ship. Sometimes it is as much as twice the gross tonnage.
433. That would be 11,000?--Yes, but that would not be so in this case, I think. I should not think this ship would carry more than 10,000 tons at the
434. At the outside --I should think so.
most.
435. Seven pound a ton is 70,000l. Perhaps that is what he has gone on P-It may be so, but Mr. Hughes ought to know what, approximately, the value of this ahip is. The Federal Company have got four or five liners all about the same size.
(Chairman.) Anyhow, I dare say we can reduce that down a bit.
(Mr. Teunyson.) She is put down at the year 1910. 436. (Chairman.) She is a comparatively modern bout?--Yes.
437. Then as to the other items, would you say anything about those? What is the object of sending a supercargo?—To supervise the whole arrangements with regard to the delivery of the cargo. There may be some sorting out to do and that kind of thing. He has really to do clerical work and supervise.
438. Is it the usual thing to send one?-No. I think it would not be. Ordinarily the agents at the various ports appoint one of their clerks who would This is a little exceptional. That attend to all that. item. I see, is d acribed as "Contingencies including cost of super-cargo." It is an item which is put in in case anything else has been forgotten. I think.
439. Supposing we sent a supercargo, what sort of wages would a man like that get?-His position would be a position somewhat equivalent to a purser on board a liner. I do not know what pay he would get. I should not think it is necessary to send one. I should think the agents at the various ports, for their fee, There is a would do all the work that is wanted. charge of 7501. put down here for agents in Australia.
440. I should have thought that fee would have covered all that P-1 shoull have thought so They would put on a clerk to attend and assist the. captain.
tou.
(Mr. Tannyson.) There may be rather unusual difficulties in this.
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