PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
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Reference :-
C.O. 885
24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-
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30 November 1914.]
OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:
Mr. H. MAITland Keresy.
229. (Mr. Roper.) We also use detained vessels which may have to be given up to their owners at the end of the war. That is where a difficulty comes in ?—Yes.
230. (Mr. Malkin.) Yes, I agree. They must be replaced somehow ?—I do not want to ask any unfair largain, and I can give you any information you like, I can give you the whole of the cost of running the .. Derflinger Across the Pacific down to a penny, almost.
231. (Mr. Ecuns.) That will be valuable later on. At present we are rather feeling our way and seeing what can be done with these vessels?-It costs us about 11,000l. the round voyage to run the Empress of India," and she is 6,000 tons. That is without counting depreciation or interest on capital.
232. That covers crew and coal?--Yes, everything: 11,000l. to 12,0001. a round voyage, according to the number of passengers.
233. Is there any difference in the profit to you whether they are guing east or west ?-If we have to bring home west-bound cargo we lose a couple of months on the job.
Dow
34. I meant in a case between Asia and Canada ? -We go to Hong Kong, Shanghai, all the Japanese ports, and Victoria and Vancouver. We are chartering vessels of the Russian Volunteer Fleet. We chartered the "Novgorod" the other day. She will return from Vancouver to Vladivostock, and then, down the coast to Hong Kong to load up again.
235. Is the voyage in one direction more profitable than the other?—The eastward voyage is the profitable one because the cargoes are tea and silk. The west bound is nothing but flour and heavy stuff. The east- bound voyage is the profitable oue.
226. There is nothing more you can tell us which will be useful, is there P-No, but any time you like to ask anything I will give you the information with pleasure. But I do not see how I can possibly make an offer until I know first of all about the marine risk. secondly, the war risk, and thirdly, the speed and consumption of the boat-of the Derflinger," for instance-fourthly, the passenger capacity, fifthly, dead-weight cargo capacity, and sixthly, I should like to know her bunker capacity. I do not know how one
[Continued.
is to tell all that. Of course they have it all in Egypt, because they can see it on the ship's plans which are no doubt in the chart room.
237. (Mr. Malkin.) We could do that if somebody will draft a telegram. If we can settle the thing here I will have it sent off ?—I will lend you one of my best marine superintendents to tell you all about these ships if you want him. He will go anywhere you like
he will go to Egypt or are then here.
238. (Mr. Evana.) We do not want too much of a business of the whole thing. We want to make a fair business bargain, and with as much convenience as possible to everybody. I think if we telegraph out there for that information which you have mentioned, that would enable us to know ?-I think we should learn that. All these offices are closed here, the German Lloyd's office, and one cannot get the plans. These ships were built in Germany.
239, (Mr. Barstow.) There is no volume of inform ation? No. I can tell you roughly what her speel would be by looking at her horsepower and Lloyd's Register, but that would not give you the passenger I do know accommodation, or cargo or bankers.
these two ships would suit us because our Manager in Japan knows them, and he told me that is the class of ship we want. I could strain a big point in favour of those two ships without too much information, if I got some information.
240. (Mr. Evans.) I think probably we shall have to get that information and information about some other vessels, and if we do we might let you know, and then you will perhaps consider it ?--Yes, I do not know whether Keller, Bryant and Company have got it. I think they are the North German Lloyd's agents in Southampton. They were agents for other lines, too. They are certain to have the "Derfflinger" informa. tion; I should think they would be quite certain_to have it because they would be loading her there. She calls at Southampton on hert voyages to the east. Shall They have a firm in the City in the east end. I wait till I hear from you again?
(Mr. Evans.) We cannot get any further till we get this informatiou.
The witness
withdrew.
Mr. CHARLES H.
241. (Mr. Evans.) A little time back you were in correspondence with the Colonial Office, or your firm was in correspondence with the Government, about taking up the Frisia." Does your offer still remain good?--Yes, we are still desirous of getting the boat. But before I discuss that may I ask what are the terms n which the Government are prepared to sell these boats or charter them?
242. If we sold them it would bare to be at the full appraised value. They would have to be valued by Of course the prizes are properly qualified surveyors. usually sold by auction. and then they are knocked down to the highest bidder. If it is for chartering, if the ships are detained and we have to return them to the Germans at the end of the war, we have to make some sort of arrangement whereby the value of the ship is deposited in the Prize Court, or an indemnity given and all risks are taken, and then the net profit accrues to the Government for letting the ship out?--There would be a regular scale, I suppose, which she would he chartered at?
234. We should rather hope to get the offer from the firms who wanted the ship. We do not want to drive too hard a bargain, but we want to benefit the Prize Fund? We wanted to know first whether you were prepared to charter with the option of purchase, If you are not prepared to do that, are you prepared to
ut her up to auction in Hong Kong?
244 On that point it is just a question whether any of the ships will be sold abroad. A good many of them may be sold over here; not necessarily brought home, but particulars can be ascertained and the sale can take place in this country, where there is a better
Ross attended.
market ?--The value of that particular ship to us is that she is on the spot. There are plenty of other ship- which, if the sale were to take place in this country, we should prefer. What I would like to know is, are the Government prepared to entertain an offer from us. She was and if so, what would be the terms of sale? captured by the Triumph," and she has been condeained, I understand.
(Mr. Holt.) Yes, she has been condemned.
245. (Mr. Erane.) I do not know that we are quite in a position to give you a definite answer to that. beyond stating this: If you chose to make an offer for the vessel a good many points would have to be con- sidered, because we should have to square the Prize Court somehow or other. If you mike an offer w will undertake that it will be fairly and fully considered, but I could not say now definitely that the Governinent will be prepared to sell?-Will the Government be prepared to charter to us?.
246. Oh, yes, I think they are prepared to do that? -We are quite prepared to take her up.
247. If you would make an offer for the price of the ship-what you considered to be a fair offer---1 n certain that that will be considered. and probably favourably considered, if the price wems to us to l fair, we knowing what the value of the ship is. Fail- ing that, if the price were not a fair one, if we did not think it sufficient. then I suppose we should have to consider an offer to hire the ship. But in this particular case it would probably be better to sell the ship right out --Before I can make an offer, can you tell me what terms the Government are willing to accept with regard to the payment of the purchase money?
30 November 1914.]
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. C. H. Ross.
248. (Mr. Tennyson.) You mean payment out right ?-Yes, or by instalments. There has been a notice in the paper that the Government were prepared to give easy terms to shipowners.
249. (Mr. Roper.) I think I know about that. The terms mentioned in the papers, and which have been approved by the Government, I think are, that when the purchase takes place 25 per cent. is to be paid, and the other 75 per cent. is to be paid at intervals, the first payment to be two years after the declaration of It spreads over five years ?—Any offer 1 should make would be subject to those terms.
war.
250. (Mr. Evans.) There are many things to be considered. I think possibly we might arrange terms on those lines. I suppose you would not like to make an alternative offer of a lump sum payment or the other? --Well, the position is this: times are fairly hard, and there is also another thing, namely, that the assets of our company are out in Hong Kong, and at the present Of course, un moment exchange is rather low. extended period would give one a chance of getting the money home, when a higher exchange would be advantageous. I am prepared to make you a cash offer in Hong Kong dollars.
251. (Afr. Tennyson.) Then payment would be made in Hong Kong, I suppose F- Yes. What you would do with the dollars, of course, does not concern us.
252. (Mr. Evans.) I think you might do that if you would-Yes, I will.
253. Could you give alternative offers, one for a cash payment in Hong Kong and the other a payment spread over the period mentioned? Yes, I certainly can do that.
254. It then throws on the Government the onus of deciding which they will do, either take the cash down or spread the payment over?-Yes. At the same time I can make an offer to charter the boat.
255. I think it would be worth while doing that ?— I understand the Government has chartered several prizes from Calcutta.
256. Yes, that is so ?—And if they are not prepared to sell the boat at once we would be prepared perhaps to charter her for six months or a year.
257. Giving delivery-We could give re-delivery We should use her in Hong Kong or Calentta. between Hong Kong and Calcutta. We want her for the line we run there. All the British India boats have been taken up, and several of our own boata have been taken up by the Government, so at the present moment we happen to be short. One of the bouta was captured, the Lovat." She was suuk.
2258. (Mr. Roper.) These chartered ships were de tained ships, I suppose? These were not condemned?
-I am afraid I cannot tell you.
250. It makes all the difference whether they belong to the Government or whether they are only The temporarily in charge of the Government.
Frisia" is a prize?—Yes.
260. We can sell that ship, we cannot the others? Yeg.
261, (Mr. Erans.) Is there anything else you want to ask? Yes. I have a question with regard to getting a Board of Trade passenger certificate for this Vessel She has a class-100 Al at Lloyd's—but of course she was German owned and I do not imagine that she has a Board of Trade passenger certificate. For running our trade between Hong Kong and Calcutta a Board of Trade passenger certificate is essential, for carrying coolie passengers, I am afraid.
282. If you bought the ship you would have to register as a British ship?—Yes, but the trouble about getting a Board of Trade certificate is that they will
[Continued
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not give one unless they have personally inspected the vessel. Now, what I would suggest as a way out is this, that the Board of Trade should authorise Lloyd'a surveyor to examine the ship out there. She has already her class-100 A1 at Lloyd's. She was built in England, so they know all about the ship. Of course we have to comply with the local ordinance about decks and so on, but unless she has a Board of Trade certificate it will lead to trouble with the Indian 'Government.
263. (Mr. Walsely.) She could be surveyed in India,
I suppose?—Yes, either India or Hong Kong, but I believe hitherto the Board of Traile have been rather stiff about it. They have never given one unless the vessel has been inspected on the spot.
264. (Mr. Roper.) It is not in my department, but I cannot conceive there would be any difficulty. They would not say that the vessel should come here to be examined ?—No. She is practically a new ship. She is only a year old and she was built in this country. It is only a technical difficulty.
(Mr. Hoper.) I should think that is easily got
over.
265. (Mr. Malkin.) She is a ship of 4,985 tons, I think -4,997 tona. I think she is numbered at Lloyd's 678.
266. Yes. She was built this year, I see ?—I know she is quite a new boat.
267. (Mr. Roper.) I understand the question is this can she obtain a Board of Trade passenger certificate?—Yes. The certificate really refers to her
engines and things of that sort. as to whether she is suitable for carrying passengers.
268. This ship having been built here the Board of Trade people will know all about her?—Oh, yes.
260. And so far as they want a survey, to see if she has been properly maintained, they can get that done in Hong Kong?-Yes, through Lloyd's surveyor, either in Calcutta or Hong Kong. Are they willing to do that and give us a Board of Trade certificate?" There is no difficulty in obtaining it in this country, but the trouble is that the vessel is out there.
270. (Mr. Evans.) Will you make your offer on the assumption that you get that certificate?—Yes. whom am I to make the offer?
To
271. (Mr. Roper.) I think you had better addres the Secretary to this Committee?-Very well, I will do that, certainly.
272. (Mr. Evans.) Are you going to offer to charter as well. Yes, I will offer to charter.
273. Of course if you charter the vessel she would have to be fully insured and indemnified, and all that wort of thing-Yes.
274. The Prize Fund or this Committee could not take any risk upon that. You would have to indemnify them for all that ?-We would take the boat over and The terms pay the Government so much per ton. in Calcutta were 2s. a ton per month. We would take the boat over and provide a crew and everything for her, and keep her fully insured for the value the Government stated.
275. (Mr. Roper.) The war risk as well as the marine risk? Well, I suppose we could insure that in the Club?
276. Oh, yes: it is only a question of paying ?-Our boats are entered in the Club. I am sorry to say she in empty. She carried a whole lot of British cargo. She may have coal, but all her cargo which she origi- nally had was dumped out before she was captured. Many anxious people came when she was brought inte Hong Kong hoping to get their cargo and found ther was nothing on board.
The witness withdrew.
Adjourned.
B 3
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OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE: